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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 13:26:17 GMT -8
This is supposed to be P. cresphontes from Mexico .I have a P. thoas thoas from Brasil that has nearly identical markings only it's much larger and more elongate forewongs. Is that the difference?  |
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Post by livingplanet3 on Feb 14, 2021 14:20:31 GMT -8
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 14:58:50 GMT -8
I'm still not sure , there is a faint fourth spot on mine .
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Post by livingplanet3 on Feb 14, 2021 15:16:03 GMT -8
According to the BugGuide link: "NOTE: The three or four submarginal spots mentioned in the key above are relatively large spots. In both species there are sometimes more tiny spots in the same position in cells above these (don't count those)".Yes - it can still be rather difficult to distinguish between the two species, even with the above detail. I suspect that your specimen is probably cresphontes, though. It's been my observation that on average, the tails in thoas are slightly more elongate (although, as with the markings, there is some variation in that, too). |
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 18:03:19 GMT -8
I guess I'll go with cresphontes!
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Post by eurytides on Feb 14, 2021 18:27:30 GMT -8
I think thoas. The forewing spots in cells M2, M3, Cu1 all typical thoas. Hindwing submarginal yellow spots - looking at the crescent shape of the innermost two spots, this would also go with thoas.
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 18:27:31 GMT -8
well, here a pic besides P. thoas thoas from Brasil. but I'm not sure what P.thoas from mexico looks like for proper comparison  |
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 18:30:53 GMT -8
I think thoas. The forewing spots in cells M2, M3, Cu1 all typical thoas. Hindwing submarginal yellow spots - looking at the crescent shape of the innermost two spots, this would also go with thoas. oh no! more confusion! |
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Post by eurytides on Feb 14, 2021 18:50:00 GMT -8
No confusion. Both looks good for thoas. The M3 and Cu1 spots are rectangular in thoas and more oval in cresphontes. The M2 and M3 spots are nearly equal in size for thoas, not so for cresphontes. Both specimens you show look like thoas to me.
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Post by eurytides on Feb 14, 2021 18:51:58 GMT -8
Google some pictures from reputable sources and compare these characteristics for the two taxa. The differences are hard to notice, but once you do notice them, then it doesn’t seem as subtle.
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Post by lordpandarus on Feb 14, 2021 19:00:59 GMT -8
oh well, I was kind of hoping it was cresphontes because I didn't have that species!
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Post by eurytides on Feb 14, 2021 19:19:20 GMT -8
Cresphontes is pretty common. I don’t expect you would have too much trouble finding it on the market.
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Post by Paul K on Feb 14, 2021 19:42:51 GMT -8
I agree it is P.thoas. Looks exactly the same as ssp.autocles I collected in Costa Rica. I suppose it is same subspecies.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Feb 15, 2021 4:16:44 GMT -8
This specimen is P. thoas autocles as eurytides and Paul K say. In any case if it comes from Mexico it can't be Papilio cresphontes, it is either P. rumiko or P. thoas autocles. Papilio cresphontes does not occur in Mexico. Here are a couple of jpeg figures extracted from the original description of Papilio rumiko Shiraiwa & Grishin, 2014 to show the difference between rumiko and cresphontes and the distribution of the two species.   Citation: Shiraiwa K, Cong Q, Grishin NV (2014) A new Heraclides swallowtail (Lepidoptera, Papilionidae) from North America is recognized by the pattern on its neck. ZooKeys 468: 85-135. doi.org/10.3897/zookeys.468.8565Unfortunately for lordpandarus the more obvious differences between those two species are on the underside. Adam. |
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Post by eurytides on Feb 15, 2021 6:05:02 GMT -8
Adam, does thoas use Rutaceae? There seems be much confusion about this on the internet but I can’t locate an actual paper to clarify the issue either way. On the one hand, thoas is closely related to cresphontes so Rutaceae use seems plausible at least. However, other sources say thoas only uses Piperaceae. This might also be plausible since the taxa are easily misidentified. Do you have any insights?
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