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Post by ianblain on Jul 21, 2021 11:12:17 GMT -8
Hey all,
I've been pondering something. Firstly, being honest: I'm the kind of guy who steps on bugs, not around them... I just want to be upfront about that. And in spite of that, I still respect their importance in the ecosystem.
That being said...
Over the course of my life I have run across a very small number of people who immediately dislike it when I step on bugs, expressing varying degrees of distaste. Some examples: I'm at a restaurant and a creepy looking spider is crawling on the floor near my seat, so I quietly slide my foot over and crunch it. Then someone at the table goes: "that was mean" Or, a bee lands on my glass so I stealthily flick it to the floor and someone goes "it's just hungry" when I go to stamp my foot on it. Or if I'm playing tennis with a buddy, I take a couple seconds to bulldoze an ant mound with the toe of my sneaker, he says half-jokingly "Come on... serve the ball. What did they do to you?" missing the obvious point which is that I'm purposely doing it for no reason.
Truthfully this reaction is far more the exception than the rule and probably those are the only examples I can remember over a long period. Most girls love when I step on a spider for them. Even if I'm stamping my feet on some unwelcome ants, the most common reaction is indifference. However, I'm genuinely interested why a small number of people feel they should protest.
I also wonder how they feel about recreational fishing, meaning fishing without the intention to use as a food source. At first thought, to me that seems sort of brutal. But not only is this type of fishing not condemned; it seems to be embraced. However, whether intended or not, fish which are caught can get injured and regularly die. Recreational does not mean "not lethal." I assume everyone who does catch fish with the goal of releasing them is aware of that potential outcome. Meanwhile, this activity is done for entertainment. Even more: it is ritualized as a method of "bonding" with others. And these are vertebrate organisms with a developed central nervous system which I must assume experiences pain. But people do this to "pass the time." To them this activity is a "hobby."
When I go to raise my shoe over a line of mindless ants during an outdoor lunch, the same guy who may look on with disdain may very well be someone who regularly fishes for sport instead of food. But why? Does it come down to a perceived difference in distress or terror caused between The Attack of the Giant Sneaker versus The Attack of the Giant Hook From Hell? Obviously I'm not a bug or a fish but given the choice, getting one's face punctured by a hook and dragged 20 yards until its torn out and you can't breathe seems way crueler than being quickly crushed by some giant white rubber thing. The smell of my feet would be more traumatic.
So why is one action tolerated but not the other? Use this thread to discuss respectfully: Do you dislike seeing someone step on bugs? Do you see it as worse than recreational fishing?
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Post by trehopr1 on Jul 21, 2021 11:30:23 GMT -8
I think it can be said that we as entomologists or entomology enthusiasts only take life for scientific reasons.
These reasons include research, species variation, or for a personal passion which we have (i.e. hobby). Even as a hobbyist we still eventually pass our collections along to either museums or other collectors; so the lives taken are NOT for naught.
In life, sometimes insects may wind up on our clothing and be a personal nuisance; so I can perfectly understand why someone might take the life or when they invade our home and are considered a nuisance again I have no issues about taking the life.
However, I cannot fathom the reason why anyone would go out of their way to take the life of anything just because it is near you and exists...
I don't want anyone reading into these words and spinning it into something it is not meant to be. I am just being honest in my opinion on this matter. I only take what I can use as a collector and all of my extras get passed on to others.
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Post by gaspipe on Jul 21, 2021 15:54:46 GMT -8
I swash any cockroach I see and go out of my way to do so. Otherwise other than an attacking hornet ; I wouldn’t kill the proverbial fly.
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Post by kevinkk on Jul 21, 2021 18:43:31 GMT -8
I squish most of the spiders that get in the house, some, I do relocate outdoors, it really depends on species and where the thing is. Other than that, I don't squish bugs for any reason, I do kill them, and stick pins in them however. I set ant traps indoors, and it's a matter of territory- I don't go into an ant colony and make off with their stuff. The manner which people regard animals is varied, I have rescued bats when I was removing roofing material and they'd be uncovered, and one time I physically threatened a fellow employee who was about to smash a bat nest with a shovel- he didn't come back to work the next day. I'd rather hang out with the bats than someone like that. Animals just do what they do, and it's their job to survive, if it's squirrels eating my bird suet, or raccoons, I just try and make it more difficult for them to get things I don't want them to have. Of course, we smash mosquitos, at least I do- and other biting insects without a second thought, I'm not a blood bank after all. Fishing and hunting are different, at least to me, my Dad did both, and I've blasted many ducks and caught fish, I let Dad clean them however, and I'll tell you what I think the difference is- if you're going to eat a fish, bird or 4 footed mammal, you're a hunter, other than that, I have issues with "pest" control, like shooting coyotes for fun, or even to protect livestock. Now, I can see a rancher having an issue with that, but it's my viewpoint, I don't trust animals that are bigger than I am to begin with, cows for one, sure, they look tame, standing there looking at you...
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Post by ianblain on Jul 21, 2021 21:27:41 GMT -8
I think it can be said that we as entomologists or entomology enthusiasts only take life for scientific reasons. These reasons include research, species variation, or for a personal passion which we have (i.e. hobby). Even as a hobbyist we still eventually pass our collections along to either museums or other collectors; so the lives taken are NOT for naught. In life, sometimes insects may wind up on our clothing and be a personal nuisance; so I can perfectly understand why someone might take the life or when they invade our home and are considered a nuisance again I have no issues about taking the life. However, I cannot fathom the reason why anyone would go out of their way to take the life of anything just because it is near you and exists... I don't want anyone reading into these words and spinning it into something it is not meant to be. I am just being honest in my opinion on this matter. I only take what I can use as a collector and all of my extras get passed on to others. For me anyway, there are some insects I don't kill -- such as mantises and butterflies. In most other cases in which I squash a bugs, it's usually because it's pesky or unwelcome, like a fly. I step on spiders because they are creepy and they get maddeningly close. It's happened more than once where I'll be sitting on my back patio and a spider will come crawling on the floor right in front of me and stop, like it's just waiting for me to make the first move. I thought spiders were good at sensing danger. You would think they would perceive a giant white running shoe as dangerous but it doesn't deter them from crawling dangerously close to my feet. Am I the one going out of my way at that point, or is the spider? A lot of ants visit my patio too, although they don't bother me. Sometimes I'll start stepping on them, but it's mostly because I like experimenting with their reactions.
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Post by trehopr1 on Jul 21, 2021 22:27:46 GMT -8
I think the first thing you need to realize is that spiders (in general) have some of the poorest vision in the animal kingdom. The majority depend upon their webs for survival and safety. The setae (fine hairs) on their bodies tell them more about their surroundings then their eyesight does. To them you are just an object to crawl upon; like any other piece of furniture, tree branch, building wall etc.
They are not out to get you !
As for the ants you encounter; the only thing they are doing is either following a scent trail made by another ant or they are foraging in the hopes of finding food. Again, the vision of these creatures only allows them to see things virtually (up close to them) and they rely upon their antenna and the setae of their bodies to inform them of their surroundings.
You won't get any reaction from them because again you are no different than any of the other "oversized surroundings" in their world.
I will never change the behavior which you have likely had since you were a very small child.
However, I can only point out that such behavior is misplaced, misguided, and largely unnecessary...
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Post by kevinkk on Jul 22, 2021 7:40:07 GMT -8
Spiders can be completely creepy, it's one of those things we learn as kids, usually from our parents, I've kept tarantulas, which are a little different than a pointy legged fat body black spider.. What I find frustrating is the "spider bite" excuse for any number of red bumps or mysterious marks on people's bodies. You are not a food source, and to a spider, your leg is a flat plain of terrain and nothing more.
A lot of people keep spiders, especially jumping spiders, which are very cool, orb weavers, equally so, I have some clocks I've made using real spider webs as a background.
In the house, it is a catch-22, I see a web in the corner, and it's got other pest bugs in it..now, without that spider, those pest bugs would be roaming around, instead of stuck in a corner web of a relatively stationary spider. They are free pest control. if you can stand it.
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Post by yorky on Jul 22, 2021 7:45:08 GMT -8
I don't kill anything that I'm not keeping for my collection, however I am aware that as the driver of a car I am responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands of insects a year. For those who despise collecting I merely state that if it bothers them so much they had better give up driving and walk everywhere.
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Post by 58chevy on Jul 22, 2021 14:25:11 GMT -8
My 4-year-old grandson loves to squash bugs. I'm trying to teach him not to, but he gets a big kick out of it.
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 22, 2021 17:35:41 GMT -8
In general I pay attention to what I do, not what others do.
As I remind my daughter “who do you need to worry about”?
Chuck
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Post by ianblain on Jul 22, 2021 18:27:17 GMT -8
I think the first thing you need to realize is that spiders (in general) have some of the poorest vision in the animal kingdom. The majority depend upon their webs for survival and safety. The setae (fine hairs) on their bodies tell them more about their surroundings then their eyesight does. To them you are just an object to crawl upon; like any other piece of furniture, tree branch, building wall etc. They are not out to get you ! As for the ants you encounter; the only thing they are doing is either following a scent trail made by another ant or they are foraging in the hopes of finding food. Again, the vision of these creatures only allows them to see things virtually (up close to them) and they rely upon their antenna and the setae of their bodies to inform them of their surroundings. You won't get any reaction from them because again you are no different than any of the other "oversized surroundings" in their world. I will never change the behavior which you have likely had since you were a very small child. However, I can only point out that such behavior is misplaced, misguided, and largely unnecessary... I didn't know spiders' eyesight was so poor; for some reason I thought they had good vision with all those eyes... ugh, just one more reason they're so creepy. I'd like to believe they aren't out to get me... and if I believed it, maybe I'd be more inclined to leave the ones outside alone. But the reason I'd rather squash one than see it escape is because of this feeling that if I don't take the opportunity to step on it, it will go on to make a thousand babies or I'll walk face first into its web later. Also, if the reason they crawl so close to me on the patio floor is because they see my shoe as a non-threat or just an object to crawl on, how come they try to run out from under it if I go to chase it down? Convenient! Ants don't bother me even when they are in my backyard or driveway; they aren't creepy and with them I know they aren't out to get me, being pretty much on auto-pilot. I step on them sometimes because it's cool to watch their reactions in response to different situations. For example, when I encounter one or just a few separated from their colony, they will zig zag in response to a shoe overhead, clearly trying to avoid getting crushed. Meanwhile, their reactions to me are way different if I'm standing over their home. I could hover my foot inches above an ant mound, and they don't try to evade it at all. It's like Independence Day where there is a giant spaceship over the city but instead of everyone panicking, they're still taking the train to work. It's only when I bring my shoe down that they scatter. Even afterward, it is interesting to watch how quickly they return to business as usual. Even if I stand with my foot completely covering their home to try and block traffic in and out, they are undeterred. A small number will crawl on top of my sneaker I presume trying to bite me but the majority just continues to crawl around or even underneath the obstruction so they can go in or out. So ants seem to react differently to a human presence depending on their number and location. At least that is true in my experience....and I've stepped on a lot of ants. EDIT: I'll admit it's probably an unnecessary habit; you are right that I have been squashing bugs since I was a kid. However, I know a quite a few guys who wouldn't have a second thought about it and act much the same way I do. For me it's sometimes curiosity, sometimes a solution to a perceived problem, and really sometimes just horsing around. How you describe even if true, is it harmful? I don't think I even make a dent in the ants population.
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Post by trehopr1 on Jul 22, 2021 21:13:52 GMT -8
Indeed, your indiscretions with the "little things underfoot" are imperceptible in nature.
However, if there is any merit to beliefs of "reincarnation" (i.e. the rebirth of a soul in a new body) then you might want to re-think your actions here (while your here); because you may wind up back here as a spider or ant at the very least !
This has been a curious conversation...
Take care.
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Post by ianblain on Jul 23, 2021 0:48:18 GMT -8
That thought has occurred to me. When it comes to ants I think my karma is beyond negative.. if I come back as one, all I can do is I hope I don't run into a guy like me.
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Post by karpaltunnel on Jul 23, 2021 1:43:22 GMT -8
I usually just read here this forum, but I had to register to say few things: First off, OP reminds me of the “evil kid” from a certain dreamworks movie: That movie, Antz, was sort of chilling to watch. Especially the part where the kid was trying to crush the ants. I remember being quite stricken by the fact that at least in the movie they were sentient... they were basically people. Ian: you say you like watching their reaction. How would you react if an aircraft carrier fell on your neighborhood? The scattering and random movements is not accidental. it is chemically programmed survival. When you brought your crappy shoe down on their home it was like a bomb went off. Of course they’re going to try and climb out from underneath. It is the tactic they would use against an enemy. They want and are trying to attack you. Ants are programmed to repel invaders at the site of their home. That white, logoed monstrosity you are chasing them with (so you can “watch their reactions” to being stepped on - really?) is a deadly invader. Your sneaker is an invader. You standing over them are an invader. If they had the chance bite your skin, it would hurt and they could possibly repel you. Anthills survive attacks from giant invaders and in some cases repel them. The aberrant treatment you show them doesn’t exist in the wild though. While other wildlife passing through may accidentally disrupt their home from time to time, they move on... not stand directly on top of their home knowing perfectly well that your continued presence is causing problems for them. And although they can repel most animals, they are not as well adapted to deal with a motivated giant purposely dragging his feet over their home repeatedly and squashing anything that moves. Of course they climb up and to try and bite... the problem is they aren't equipped to penetrate man-made objects/running shoes with hard rubber soles and artificial foam cushioning worn by some spoiled little consumerist who already has life too easy as it is. And when they finally dig an exit and finish coming out to retrieve their dead, you are still there, hovering your dirty, malodorous shoe over their home about to do the same thing to them all over again... again and again until your "curiosity" is sated. And unfortunately, all they can do is wait until you are done indulging yourself, lift your crappy foot off their home, and lumber off out of boredom…which is a glaring example of how unfair the universe is. You sound like a good guy but try to realize: you're being a tyrant. It's easy to feel like the big bad human in capitalist United States where the animals aren't so dangerous and you live with a surplus of throw-away luxuries. But try going to Africa doing what you like to do here to anthills, where the ants are dangerous and aggressive, and without wearing any of your materialistic, malodorous footwear. No cheating. Just you and the ants. Let us know how much fun it is to experiment their reactions then.
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Post by exoticimports on Jul 23, 2021 5:17:37 GMT -8
Huh? ^^^^^ Ants merit a first post?
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