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Post by jackblack on Aug 8, 2011 3:09:33 GMT -8
I`m intersted to know what forum members opinions are about people/dealers selling illegally obtained specimens and selling protected species illegally exported that advertise on insectnet .com Although not Cities listed but protected in country of origin. No names mentioned of course , just interested in the views of people and what they think . And should various buisiness advertise their illegally obtained products ? Touchy subject and I`ll have people gunnin for me I suppose for asking these questions . Many people pertain to know nothing about it but its rife and out there .Where does one draw the line with our conservation ethics as a collector ? Hmmm. Hear no weevil , see no weevil ,  speak no weevil. |
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Post by wingedwishes on Aug 8, 2011 4:06:19 GMT -8
As an old preachers kid, I was always taught to follow the laws of the land. This is frustrating at times because I'd really like to get an affordable teinopalpus. I will not knowingly break a law.
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Post by jackblack on Aug 9, 2011 0:39:38 GMT -8
Maybe I should have posted this thread on legal issues .Maybe I should not have even started it ?
Good on ya Bill for being up front , I admire your character.
Me too I was brought up to go the right way about things .
I`m not surprised some people won`t comment .
Their livelihood is at stake .
But supporting the trade mentioned makes Government Dept`s crack down even more , everything becomes harder and harder.
Soon people will be looking at insect traders like drug traders if things keep going the way they are I feel.
Now our Gov`t down under is cracking down even more because of only one or two people .
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Post by nomihoudai on Aug 9, 2011 1:52:27 GMT -8
>Now our Gov`t down under is cracking down even more because of only one or two people
(sarcasm mode on)
Exactlyyyy, Countries with millions of people are going down because of one or two people, happens all the time.
(sarcasm mode off )
You should have posted into "open topics" or legal issues", the password protected "trading reports" is mainly to tell people to avoid scammers and thiefs or to suggest people they have done great business with and promote it, it's not really a place for big discussions.
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Post by jackblack on Aug 9, 2011 2:07:28 GMT -8
As I suggested I may have posted add in wrong heading ,I don`t need you to tell me that ,I realise. I`m new here , I see someone is not happy about my comments and doesn`t care , goes on all the time he says, sorry I ever brought the subject up Mr sarcasm.  A shame your comments could not be more positive/constructive but you obviously don`t care either , fine , your opinion . As a new member I`ll try and get it right next time . You could be a bit more helpfull instead of the heavy hand. ::)Anyway nobody is perfect , I only try. I could have said dealer bla bla bla and dealer bla bla bla are selling illegally imported and protected species , which would be a trading report , but not knowing my way round I thought to try and be a bit more diplomatic , can`t please everyone I suppose. |
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Post by nomihoudai on Aug 9, 2011 2:34:13 GMT -8
I didn't want to offend you, I just forgot to add to the above message that I find your question interesting and you should post it into open topics for a better general discussion of it !
Well for the comment about the government, the expressed idea was a little bit too populistic and simplistic in my eyes. These people get elected by a majority and furthermore every politician has countless advisers standing behind him doing the actual work. Politicians are only "a billboard" for expressing things other people have devised.
So please ask the question again in the open forum, I would be interested to see what kind of answers the topic will get.
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Post by admin on Aug 9, 2011 12:44:07 GMT -8
I can move this thread to Legal Issues. Do you want me to?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Aug 9, 2011 13:12:36 GMT -8
Would be a good idea
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Post by jackblack on Aug 9, 2011 13:56:01 GMT -8
OK no offence taken .As I say I`m new here not sure about some things and not a computer whiz either .
Yes Clark please move things to appropriate point.
It is an interesting subject I feel and I like to know what others think.
Cheers
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Post by Chris Grinter on Aug 9, 2011 15:58:08 GMT -8
There seem to be very few illegal specimens from protected species here on insectnet. Occasionally one pops up and we all berate them in the forums. I have however seen countless ads with illegal specimens for lack of permits. Anything coming from Mexico, India and Brazil is 100% illegal - those countries do not issue commercial permits!
Australia is iffy, but there has been one person with the permits to export on here in the last few years.
Other countries may issues permits, but they aren't always obtained or paid for. The US FWS does actively enforce the laws of other countries, FYI.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2011 16:53:27 GMT -8
Interesting topic. First, I do agree that it is best to stay within the laws. No insect is worth jail/fines/or both. What follows is a sad commentary on this subject from someone who used to import and investigated this very issue with the USFW offices in Washington as well as regional directors. This person has two hard-copies of responses from the USFW about their inquiry regarding 'forbidden' countries from which to import. Twice this person was told there is no list kept by the USFW about countries that one canNOT import from.  While the USFW may go after country infractions, they(USFW) led this person to believe that CITES was the red flag issue. It is sad and indeed maddening that the very agency(USFW) that enforces the laws can't (or won't) provide a list of countries one cannot import from when the importer is trying to do the right thing.  The whole legal arena is a touchy one and full of dangers. All one can do is do the best he/she can. Try calling several inspectors at USFW and ask the same question. I'll bet you'll get differing answers.....yet.....one still has to abide the law no matter what he/she is told. I'll stop here, for I don't want to say something I'll later regret  |
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Post by Chris Grinter on Aug 9, 2011 20:25:45 GMT -8
Interesting topic. First, I do agree that it is best to stay within the laws. No insect is worth jail/fines/or both. What follows is a sad commentary on this subject from someone who used to import and investigated this very issue with the USFW offices in Washington as well as regional directors. This person has two hard-copies of responses from the USFW about their inquiry regarding 'forbidden' countries from which to import. Twice this person was told there is no list kept by the USFW about countries that one canNOT import from. While the USFW may go after country infractions, they(USFW) led this person to believe that CITES was the red flag issue. It is sad and indeed maddening that the very agency(USFW) that enforces the laws can't (or won't) provide a list of countries one cannot import from when the importer is trying to do the right thing. The whole legal arena is a touchy one and full of dangers. All one can do is do the best he/she can. Try calling several inspectors at USFW and ask the same question. I'll bet you'll get differing answers.....yet.....one still has to abide the law no matter what he/she is told. I'll stop here, for I don't want to say something I'll later regret That's the sad truth, the FWS has no idea what it's really enforcing. Granted, they are under staffed and under funded - but it really comes down to the whim of whatever agent you come across! I am having some issues now with permits because the USFWS is randomly choosing to enforce a law it "thinks" should be in effect from another country. Specifically - I am on a permit with a team of people and have never had problems for years. Recently agents have decided that we should have export permits from the country of origin. Interestingly no one has ever HEARD of export permits from this country and the FWS can't even tell us whether or not they KNOW they are required! So now we have to have letters from some "minister or something" saying there are no export permits required. Crazy! Just ridiculous enforcement - someone must have an issue with insect collecting so now they make life impossible for us. |
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Post by gynandromorpho on Aug 10, 2011 0:41:20 GMT -8
many ways to answer. - in some country nature proctection is purely political with no real biologic basis ! I. e. in belgium, Brazil, ... . How can you have consideration for such laws !! (By political here, I mean control, by a very small group of persons that take control to defend their own interest, and not the community) - in other countries, it exist law to protect faunas like national Park ... anybody that go there can corrupt the guides or guards and hunt in this places ! as I know, many African countries including Madagascar ! - in others, the law porotect commercial exploitation (like CITES 2, 3). then a species is protected for commercial reason and not because it is endangered. Hard to have consideration for that ! I can tell a lot of stories about the absurdity of some protection laws ... many of them are relied to tax or politic without any conservation component. I heard that in USA you can import only species that are not protected in his origin area or with a permit ! May I suggest you to import African material, you will have any paper that you need (even those that doesn't really exist in the country of origin) and that will allow you to keep the specimens legally in your country ! everybody will be happy, you because you have the specimen, the bordrer guy because you didn't offend him (or the law of your country) and the local guy because he is richer ! [ps: this a joke of course] In an Europena country (that I can't cite in public forum), The custom tax any parcel and an organism in charge of security for food tax also any parcel he found. The all two made it totally illegally but they are so feared that nobody dares to defend. Like in a totalitary regim. ps : Of course, I respect the law and I have consideration for protection program that is really relied to conservation !  |
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Post by jackblack on Aug 10, 2011 2:25:39 GMT -8
interesting views and can agree with a few , in Australia if species is being targeted commercially a dept can jump on it to protect it , a classic example years ago an old guy was framing Buprestidae and selling them to tourists , Dept jumps on it and protects all the jewel beetle species in that state WA common or not, yet allows huge tracts of the habitat to be destroyed for wheat farming , not much logic there .These protected Buprestidae are regularly appearing on big dealers websites in recent times.
Then another state an anti collector says to someone I don`t like Ornithoptera and Ulyses to be caught for framing , the other guys says you can`t have them protected , he says you just watch , and in no time protected .Depts say reviews will be done on the conservation status of a species , but nothing happens , it`s not really endangered , it`s just to stop exploitation , but it has incited butterfly farming great conservation aspect , good for breeders .
Then the recent one was Lyphra moth butterfly an Aussie dealer now in UK paid collectors to bring him specimens , brave collectors to tear apart an ants nest to find the larva and rear , this butterfly was soon declared rare and protected with a distribution of most of east coast of queensland coastal NT and a small area in WA I feel cannot be considered rare , but departments listen to the whims of a couple anti butterfly collectors and it`s all soon protected .Yet when the bulldozer comes and pushes down the rainforest next to my place not one dept says a peep about the protected animals and endangered Cassowary that lives there let alone the insects that have all become instantly extinct on that 20 acress .Yet I`m sure these decision makers don`t hesitate to set up a bug zapper in summer or pull out the can of spray to kill anything on their plants .
We need a bit more logic and understanding when it comes to insect conservation , one person collecting on a hilltop all day for years in prime rainforest can have no impact on insects only the bulldozer can though .
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2011 5:35:15 GMT -8
This is all true, sad, pitiful, and very frustrating.....to say the least. It appears we (in the USA) are not alone in our woes I could cite so much more, but won't bother and annoy all. I do the best I can and have all kinds of paperwork to back up my status/situation/purchases/importations of old/and even receipts for specimens purchased from within this country. |
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speak no weevil.
While the USFW may go after country infractions, they(USFW) led this person to believe that CITES was the red flag issue. It is sad and indeed maddening that the very agency(USFW) that enforces the laws can't (or won't) provide a list of countries one cannot import from when the importer is trying to do the right thing. 
The whole legal arena is a touchy one and full of dangers. All one can do is do the best he/she can.
