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Post by gynandromorpho on Aug 14, 2011 5:11:58 GMT -8
 ... judge Fenton, or how to stop a debate and close a democratic debate by legal way !  I am born in a totalitary regim and I am always surprised that some of such practices are also present in democratic ones ! why do you attack persons victims of s... laws and not the s... law itself ? On another side , I know illegal practices done by the custom and a state association of my country (not USA,  .... an European country). I took information to a specialist of law that told me that I have none chance to attack them and obtain justice ! The only things I will gain is to put my name on the top of their blacklist (also illegal) ! And I didn't do anything illegal. This situation is totally ironic and stupid ! a nightmare !!
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Post by starlightcriminal on Aug 15, 2011 4:53:39 GMT -8
I don't support trafficking of any protected (or not yet protected but rare) organisms. One thing I didn't notice mentioned is the price-per-item increase for animals that are made illegal, such as Ornithoptera. In many ways, giving the special classification to a butterfly causes more interest in it. So now we have population who are intentionally collecting every butterfly they can because they are suddenly worth a lot more, or we chop down all the forests to farm butterflies instead, best case scenario.
I agree, the major shortcoming of all of the world's laws regarding wildlife trade and the management of imperiled species is that it never regulates habitat loss because no one wants to step on the toes of a large profitable industry. Scientists and amateurs alike are easier to control (and make excellent talking points when you try to convince the world you are "conserving" a species by banning collection) and more likely to pay extra money and jump through extra hoops because of the nature of what drives them. A big lumbering company, for example, will just find some other country with cheaper land to farm. So if you want to be the host of this business and keep the profit then you will submit to their will, regardless of how many species it costs.
Mike- the qualifier for withholding of evidence is that you must know that it is being actively pursued by the authorities and are intentionally suppressing it. My wife is my attorney.
Yoshi was actually pinched by an agent, one he befriended. His "competition" was actually this very agent, there was a long undercover investigation of him. It's really an interesting story and a good lesson to all would-be traders in wildlife who think they can get away with trading rare wildlife. Sometimes the laws afford protection to weird animals or for bad reasons, yes, but sometimes not. Frankly, if you are knowingly making these kinds of deals then you deserve whatever punishment may befall you. It's like putting your hand on a hot stove and being surprised you got burned. There may be a few rare cases where a truly ignorant individual collected something they shouldn't by mistake (which would be an "in good faith" type of deal), but as far as trafficking goes you definitely know what you are getting into and thus also know the consequences of such disregard.
All in all, the laws are annoying sometimes yes, but isn't it better to have at least some laws out there that at least bring awareness to the tenuous position of many or our world's organisms and ecosystems. There are all kinds of flaws in the current model but it's a start, right?
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Post by jackblack on Aug 23, 2011 3:37:17 GMT -8
It was eventual , now the reporting of every parcel exported has come and needs to be registered with Australian customs thanks to the unscrupulous few exporting protected species illegally.
The dealers supporting the trade have spurred it on , now even legal exporters are put through the wringer , not that they have anything to worry about but it just means for a whole heap of extra unnecessary paper work /permits and costs to be checked now.
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Post by jackblack on Aug 25, 2011 4:09:10 GMT -8
Amusing situation in Australia . After listening to everyone elses comments re exports from different countries hows this . I got a letter the other week from Gov`t dept saying ,Improved Wildlife validation procedures .To export. So after exporting insects from Aust over 15 years now I contact them , I`m registered with this Dept as an exporter all that time , so I ask about the new procedures , I`m shoofed back and from from one person back to the next and then back to the original person I contacted and then back and forth again , yes confusing , then one tells me I have been operating illegal all this time , what the ? Do you think one of them could have contacted me especially after 2 parcels of mine live insects came back from France and were not detected by this dept coming back into the country!so I get the new paper work after an hour and a half on the phone , I email a big wig and get no reply after two days !!!!!So to be sure I phone again today and I get different information again . Anyway I do my best I listen to the depts by what I`m told and I`m still wrong. Oh well now with the new valdation procedures should be no problems although things seemed to work a lot more smoothly before .Talk about confusing. Anyway there is a crackdown in Aust and I think some of the people supplying big dealers in Europe I mention recently will be arrested , so maybe we will read all about it ? Or they can export insects easier than I have been after being put through the wringer with the excessive paperwork. Very confusing even for the well seasoned intitiated exporter .   |
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Post by wingedwishes on Aug 27, 2011 17:03:25 GMT -8
How much fun would it be to do this to an over zealous FWS official........... ;D Attachments:
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Post by mikelock34 on Aug 29, 2011 10:16:14 GMT -8
Mine is an attorney too. It always depends upon circumstance. My point here is that people who claim to be gung ho about stopping illegal activity, in fact do nothing to stop it even though they state that they are aware of it. I am speaking in regards to illegally obtained specimens on insectnet which is the topic of the thread. I am not speaking of free speech, etc..........
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Post by jackblack on Sept 3, 2011 21:35:15 GMT -8
Latest on Australian exports , thanks to the illegal exporters , more paper work . Not only now do we need to have an export from the environment dept .We also need a customs clearance from their dept , more paper work more delays in getting a parcel away to the customers. Thanks fellas .Hope they pull you up on one of your illegal shipments . |
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Post by bichos on Sept 10, 2011 21:23:30 GMT -8
"Blame is for God and small children" (Papillon, the movie  ) |
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Post by starlightcriminal on Sept 12, 2011 10:49:42 GMT -8
Mike, I sympathize, do you ever win an argument at home  ? The circumstance here, illegal specimens on insectnet, affords so much anonymity and also does not imbue any of us with the required authority, that we cannot be held responsible for what is posted in a public forum, especially an international one such as this. You can be responsible for assisting the person move their stock around, buying some yourself, and so on, but until you have real exposure and are purposefully obscuring the facts from law enforcement you are not complicit. If you do have real knowledge of any of these folks and someone asked you, you would be accountable for any information or lack of that you provide. Otherwise it's just like all the other less reputable corners of the internet, completely free to be as bad or good as they are. Only a few laws that regulate this here in the US and they are the laws pertaining to free speech (for example direct incitement of violence, etc.) because in reality that is what is going on here. Now if they were in the classifieds we have graduated I think. Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever reported anyone for illegal activity? Or are we gung-ho about saying we will but not about confessing that it is us for fear of black-listing in the insect world? Seems like it is a small enough community that word would get around you are a snitch, but on the other hand it sounds like most of us are irritated by all the regulations disreputable folks cause us. What's the general feeling about that? I have never been so lucky myself as to have a secret agent alter-ego but I can't say that if I were confronted with someone like Yoshi at a fair that I wouldn't be at least concerned that I had seen them and not done anything. Not sure how I would react if I were in that position. |
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Post by wingedwishes on Sept 22, 2011 3:36:40 GMT -8
Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever reported anyone for illegal activity? I suppose I would if Fish and Wildlife would put the instructions in writing on how they want it done. While they are at it, they could also include some other written info like importing from US territories. I asked a Texas wildlife official once if there was a list of protected cacti and their photos any where. His reply was no and the best way was to bring any collected specimins to his office for him to check out. If I did not get arrested, they were legal. How frustrating is that? |
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Post by starlightcriminal on Sept 22, 2011 5:05:29 GMT -8
I find that extremely frustrating too, Winged. I call around and get different answers from different representatives all the time which is ultimately just as good as having not called at all because in the end I still don't know whether or not I can collect, so I don't. Then I am just irritated and out the time it took to investigate.
It would be extremely beneficial for these types of agencies to simply write some kind of manifesto dictating what is acceptable. I almost feel that the regulations are intentionally arcane.
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Post by Chris Grinter on Sept 22, 2011 13:02:16 GMT -8
Most of these laws are written to be intentionally vague, giving the power of interpretation to (hopefully) a well educated biologist. Of course budget cuts and poor pay grades can leave rather inept people in charge and since everyone is worried about promotions and their record they always err on the safe side of things = it's all illegal unless you can prove otherwise.
While reading through the memos on the drafting of revised regulation for the Bureau of Land Management (as exciting as it sounds) - they actually put into words (highly paraphrased). "We started listing permissible activities - and then decided against this list in favor of a vague rule because we don't want to spend the time listing everything that is permitted and unintentionally make it sound like something not listed is illegal nor do we want to imply that open season is granted for these items listed here" (like rock collecting but not mining).
I understand the hesitation to specifically list things as permissible because you essentially need a team of lawyers to write it in such a way that it won't be taken advantage of. It's like asking for a wish from a genie - yes you get world peace but then everyone in the world vanishes.
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Post by wingedwishes on Sept 24, 2011 2:26:41 GMT -8
Not if you asked the genie for world peace in this way.....
My wish is for world peace to occur in such a manner that I am satified with the outcome, timing, and the manner in which it was achieved else the request for said wish and all of its repurcussions are null and void as well as made wish is reset so that the number of wishes is reset to the original number granted.
Ah yes - The lawyer and the genie, what a funny book that would be.
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Post by starlightcriminal on Sept 27, 2011 5:22:01 GMT -8
Lol. I would read it.
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Post by jackblack on Nov 9, 2011 3:38:26 GMT -8
Amaxzing on fire , everyone reads about it but very few comment ,I admire the few that do, but like , what the we don`t know what goes on but we will read about it all , OK so generally nobody cares that their lack of interest or support makes it harder and harder to get their treasured insects in the future . I`m amazed , like put the blikers on , oh this doesen`t happen around me !!!!!!! If that is the case then why is legislation cracking down harder & harder and people try to make the false bottoms in their suitcases/parcels harder to detect /come on ? ::)Oh well I`m trying only to get some people to see the light , there are ways and ways of going about insect harvest and export , everyone admits oh its only the bull dozers that destroy species? environment ? is it ? I as am a harvester of insects I can tell you its the bulldozers destroying species/environemt, so come on you several thousand readers , no voices or are all these readers mute s?Hmmmmmmmmmmm  |
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... judge Fenton, or how to stop a debate and close a democratic debate by legal way ! 
.... an European country). I took information to a specialist of law that told me that I have none chance to attack them and obtain justice ! The only things I will gain is to put my name on the top of their blacklist (also illegal) !
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