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Post by africaone on Feb 10, 2012 2:36:34 GMT -8
i don't understand your POV. it is illegal to catch, trade etc. cerdo in the countries where it lives (few exception outside EU where the sp is uncommon and most of the specimens incriminated came from UE). How can it be legal to trade them as it is illegal to catch them  even if the specimens are sold from a country that do not respect EU convention, it rest illegal as the specimens are illegal ! even you catch a cerdo in Italy and come back to Mars, the specimen is illegal ! |
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 10, 2012 3:01:23 GMT -8
I think what mygala wants to say is that when you manage to illegaly get the specimen to Mars;) and you later sell it from Mars, the specimen is from an American legislation legal again. They are not interested what was before, they are only interested what happens the moment when it gets over to US.
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Post by africaone on Feb 10, 2012 5:11:31 GMT -8
I think what mygala wants to say is that when you manage to [u[illegaly [/u] get the specimen to Mars;) and you later sell it from Mars, the specimen is from an American legislation legal again. They are not interested what was before, they are only interested what happens the moment when it gets over to US.[/quote] Claude, I can't imagine that US legislation is so unserious and ineffective !  That seems contrary to the lacey act spirit ! |
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runear
Junior Member
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Post by runear on Feb 10, 2012 7:37:56 GMT -8
i don't agree cerdo is in the list annex A of EU that equals annex 1 of CITES. it must be treaten then as annex 1 of CITES. Where can I find any online documentation for the list of species in Annex A of the EU legislation? I've found this official list covering Annex A-D on the website for the German Federal Agency for Nature Conservation, but there is no mention of C.cerdo or any coleoptera other than Dynastes satanas and Colophon spp: www.bfn.de/fileadmin/MDB/documents/themen/cites/VO_709_2010_en.pdfIt would be quite useful for enthusiasts to get hold of a complete list of insects protected by EU law. There are already many Red lists on national level. In Norway we have a National Red list covering species facing different levels of threat - a useful tool for public and private development, but this is not to be confused with a list of the actual protected species covered by national law. The IUCN Red list www.iucnredlist.org/ is a cooperation on a global scale to gather info on endangered species. However they have only assessed a small percentage of known species, especially among insects. As far as I know their data does not translate directly into current international law - as opposed to CITES. Rune |
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Post by africaone on Feb 10, 2012 8:33:19 GMT -8
known as the "convention de Berne" annexe II (update 2006) available at conventions.coe.int/treaty/fr/Treaties/Html/104.htmsee espacially article 6e for info other species included in this annex Coleoptera Buprestis splendens Carabus bessarabicus Carabus hungaricus Carabus olympiae Cerambyx cerdo Cucujus cinnaberinus Dytiscus latissimus Graphoderus bilineatus Osmoderma eremita Rosalia alpina Lepidoptera Apatura metis Coenonympha hero Coenonympha oedippus Erebia calcaria Erebia christi Erebia sudetica Eriogaster catax Euphydryas (Eurodryas) aurinia Fabriciana elisa Hyles hippophaes Hypodryas maturna Lopinga achine Lycaena dispar Maculinea arion Maculinea nausithous Maculinea teleius Melanargia arge Papilio alexanor Papilio hospiton Parnassius apollo Parnassius mnemosyne Plebicula golgus Polyommatus galloi Polyommatus humedasae Proserpinus prosperpina Zerynthia polyxena |
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 10, 2012 8:43:31 GMT -8
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Post by francisento on Feb 10, 2012 10:29:41 GMT -8
Well Folks, I didn't expect this question would cause such a debate!...
The discussion has now nearly reached the level of solicitor's discussion
and has become complicated indeed.
Besides Cerambyx cerdo there are other species such as Lucanus cervus
regularly offered by european ebay-sellers or put up for sale even on numerous european insect-trading websites. Both mentioned species are strictly protected in the EU, so how is it legal to buy, catch or sell such species?
I live in Switzerland, but I see with Switzerland there isn't any "x" occuring in the list?!?
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Post by wolf on Feb 10, 2012 10:38:05 GMT -8
Its illegal, but Governments around EU have bigger issues atm than hunting down illegal insect traders... tbh i dont think they would hunt them down anyway...
Tigers, Leopards, Ivory, etc. yes...
Beetles and butterflies. no...
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 10, 2012 11:24:49 GMT -8
Lucanus cervus is part of annex III of Bern Convention, this says that countries signing the convention (including Switzerland) have to make laws to regulate the trade of the species. This does not immediately mean that trading that species would be forbidden. Then you have to check for the individual countries laws considering Lucanus cervus. I don't know in Switzerland but in Germany it is forbidden to catch them. A specimen caught in Germany would be illegal in Germany and could not be sold on ebay.com as the Lacey Act (?) then would make American authorities enforce German law which say it is protected. In France it is not protected ( -> www.inra.fr/opie-insectes/lip-idf.htm ), it would be legal to sell it on ebay.com from France... on the other hand a German citizen would still not be allowed to buy it as species protected in Germany are protected regardless of their origin. There is too many laws, but don't worry, soon everything is protected and then we don't have to worry again /sarcasm |
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Post by panzerman on Feb 10, 2012 11:43:30 GMT -8
All these stupid laws have been crafted by brainless pencil pushers, with a leftwing agenda that thinks governments should control the masses...I thought this is what Karl Marx, V. Lenin, J. Stalin were all about. It is this same mentality that has the EU, USA on the brink of economic collapse. The same crowd pushed up labour costs vs unions blackmailing govts with strikes, work stoppages, the failed, "Green Energy" fiasco where wind and solar projects drove govts into bankruptcy, when nuclear, hydro were much more effective. Collecting has never harmed any insect population. Just ask Brazil, they go overbroad to police entomologists, but allows million of hectares of virgin rainforest to be razed, leaving wastelands... John  |
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runear
Junior Member
Posts: 37
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Post by runear on Feb 10, 2012 11:45:32 GMT -8
Thanks Thierry and Claude for info  Yes, the situation is at best confusing. As the European Union has signed the Bern convention it would seem likely to incorporate endangered species from the annex II list to the annex A list of EU legislation - but that's obviously not happened. Almost every country signing the Bern convention has separate reservations to it, e.g., Finland objects to protecting insects like D.latissimus, E.aurinia, H.maturna, L.achine.. And Norway has some reservations against the ban of whaling of course... So why is C.cerdo absent from annex A in the EU? Why the need for several lists concerning the same objective? No wonder such vague laws loose the legal battle over natural resources..  Not to mention the Customs, they really have no clue what laws they are to follow.. This is another example of why international laws have to evolve into common standards based on knowledge - not politics. In a perfect world the Bern convention would protect biodiversity on a national level and CITES would govern the international trade of wildlife.. Sadly there's too many hidden economic agendas & a huge lack of knowledge - especially where power is located... Its illegal, but Governments around EU have bigger issues atm than hunting down illegal insect traders... tbh i dont think they would hunt them down anyway... Tigers, Leopards, Ivory, etc. yes... Beetles and butterflies. no... Very few things are strictly illegal, there are almost always loopholes and exceptions. There are many reasons; science, medicine, ethnicity to name some - it's all about legal terms. There are literally thousands of laws governing our daily life. And all these different laws has different priority when in conflict. No wonder there are millions of lawyers making a living of sorting this chaos out - with varying rate of success.. |
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Post by mygala on Feb 10, 2012 16:01:45 GMT -8
I think what mygala wants to say is that when you manage to illegaly get the specimen to Mars;) and you later sell it from Mars, the specimen is from an American legislation legal again. They are not interested what was before, they are only interested what happens the moment when it gets over to US. Claude, you are correct. We also have to accept, at least the possiblity, that there may be breeding colonies of some of some protected animals in countries that are not within their normal range. In fact, some of this breeding has been going on longer than the laws have been in effect. The laws are usually written to allow these animals to be "grandfathered" in, as they say. At the time most of these laws were written, there was really no way do identify the legal animals from the ones that have been "laundered" through a third country. It may be possible now with DNA technology, but it is likely not feasible in many cases. ...like for a single insect sold on eBay. An Amur Tiger might be a different story. |
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Post by africaone on Feb 11, 2012 1:56:21 GMT -8
about the date, I don't what happens in other countries but here, a specimen become legal only if has been declared at a certain date (following the date of the law in question) as any actitivity in connection.
The excuse of dates is used in many cases (as in alexandrae) and it is the small hole in the law that salers used today ... and that works only if the custom accept it !
of course you are right that some laws are not adpated, that they are some ways to not respect them and that customs have much more important to do than hunt collectors.
But the question was is it legal or not to sell cerdo on ebay ?
I forgot to add that ebay has his own rules about animal and plant prohibited on the site.
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Post by zdenol123 on Feb 11, 2012 2:32:29 GMT -8
I forgot to add that ebay has his own rules about animal and plant prohibited on the site. What rule are you talking about Thierry ? |
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 11, 2012 2:39:58 GMT -8
>I forgot to add that ebay has his own rules about animal and plant prohibited on the site.
None covering dead insects. The question if the Cerambyx cerdo is legal or illegal depends on what country the specimen is from and how they dealt with putting Bern Convention trough in their laws.
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