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Post by francisento on Feb 8, 2012 10:46:13 GMT -8
Cerambyx cerdo can be seen regularly on Ebay-auctions. Is it legal to sell and buy this species? It is listed on the IUCN Red List in the category "vulnerable". Thanks for any advice.
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Post by africaone on Feb 8, 2012 11:12:55 GMT -8
it is completely protected and of course prohibited for sale !
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Post by prillbug2 on Feb 8, 2012 14:22:10 GMT -8
I'm glad that I got mine from Spain, 25 years ago.
Jeff Prill
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Post by mygala on Feb 8, 2012 16:10:29 GMT -8
The IUCN listing does not hold any legal ramifications to purchasing one, ...only ethical ones.
Cerambyx cerdo isn't listed under CITES or the the ESA.
So if you live in the US and are purchasing it from a a US dealer, there is no problem.
If you live in the US and are purchasing from outside the country, again there would be no problem, as long
1) It's legally possessed by the seller, and can legally be sold and exported from the country that it's currently in (make sure the country doesn't require any export permits or paperwork. )
and
2) You fulfill all the USFWS legal requirements for importing in to the US. (If it's just this one insect for your personal collection, filing a 3-177 should suffice.)
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Post by africaone on Feb 8, 2012 23:48:02 GMT -8
i don't agree
cerdo is in the list annex A of EU that equals annex 1 of CITES. it must be treaten then as annex 1 of CITES.
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Post by mygala on Feb 9, 2012 0:08:28 GMT -8
i don't agree cerdo is in the list annex A of EU that equals annex 1 of CITES. it must be treaten then as annex 1 of CITES. It depends on the country of export and import. If it is coming from outside of the EU, and not being shipped in to the EU, then it is not treated as Appendix I of CITES. Since it is not actually listed under CITES, the US would not recognize it as an import violation unless it were illegally exported. With the EU listing, that means it would have to be illegally shipped from the EU. If it were to come in to US as a legal export from China (as an example), it would not require any documentation other than the 3-177 Declaration and any export paperwork that China might require. If it were to come from France, it would require all of the EU paperwork to be a legal export before it could be legally imported to the US. Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see if the original poster listed the countries of import and export. I was just going on the presumption of a legal export into the US. |
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Post by africaone on Feb 9, 2012 0:14:50 GMT -8
may be I am wrong but I thought that the law in USA is that what is protected in a country is prohibited for import in USA.
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Post by mygala on Feb 9, 2012 0:51:36 GMT -8
may be I am wrong but I thought that the law in USA is that what is protected in a country is prohibited for import in USA. You may be thinking of the Lacey Act. This link explains it far better than I could. www.animallaw.info/articles/ovuslaceyact.htmThe Act prohibits trade in wildlife, fish, and plants that have been illegally taken, possessed, transported or sold. If, in the case of the original post, if the the wildlife was legally possessed, sold and exported, then it could be legally imported in to the US. The Lacey Act is only applicable if there is some underlying or predicating violation. The US does not actually enforce the laws of other countries, but the Lacey Act can essentially have that effect. That's why it's so important to acquire collecting and export permits when they are required by the exporting country. Otherwise it's an illegal export and cannot be legally imported in to the US. |
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Post by africaone on Feb 9, 2012 1:05:50 GMT -8
thanks for the explanation.  as annex A of EU is considered as annex 1 of Cites, I don't see any way to sold it legally ! |
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Post by nomihoudai on Feb 9, 2012 1:28:33 GMT -8
The example of "Cerambyx cerdo from China" is a bad one as it does not exist there. Cerambyx cerdo pretty much only exists in Europe where it is protected. The only country I saw where it exists and that did not sign Bern convention is Belarus. Unless the specimen is then from Belarus it is forbidden to offer them on ebay.com as they have to follow US American legislation (where the species would then be protected trough Lacey act as mentionned above).
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Post by wingedwishes on Feb 9, 2012 6:58:48 GMT -8
For my education, are there many countries which do not participate in the CITES rules?
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Post by prillbug2 on Feb 9, 2012 7:34:52 GMT -8
Actually, mine were acquired through a trade in 1986.
Jeff Prill
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Post by mygala on Feb 9, 2012 16:57:18 GMT -8
The example of "Cerambyx cerdo from China" is a bad one as it does not exist there. Cerambyx cerdo pretty much only exists in Europe where it is protected. The only country I saw where it exists and that did not sign Bern convention is Belarus. Unless the specimen is then from Belarus it is forbidden to offer them on ebay.com as they have to follow US American legislation (where the species would then be protected trough Lacey act as mentionned above). I actually chose China because it was not part of the EU and not a range country for insect. I was trying to illustrate that the Lacey Act is dependent more on the countries involved and their laws than on the specific animal. It is not uncommon to see animals from one part of the world listed for sale in another. That was the point of my illustration, sorry if it was a bit obtuse. thanks for the explanation. as annex A of EU is considered as annex 1 of Cites, I don't see any way to sold it legally ! Most (if not all) members of the EU are signatories of CITES, and therefore enforce CITES, as well as the EU Annexes. However, there is no direct link between CITES and the Annexes. The EU annexes pertain only to trade between the member states of the EU. In that case, it is considered “domestic” trade. CITES is intended only regulate international shipping. In many cases, the EU regulations are stricter than CITES, in fact there are some major differences in how some animals are treated under each agreement. Cerambyx cerdo is a good example. Trade is strictly regulated within the EU, but it is not listed under any of the CITES Appendices, so there are no restrictions on it whatsoever. As a signatory of CITES, the US is bound only by the CITES Appendices, not the EU Annexes. However, the Lacey Act would allow USFWS to enforce the EU Annexes in the case of an illegal export from the EU to the US. So, again, it depends on where the animal is being sold from, and is it being legally possessed and sold. I'm not certain if it was ever specified where the insects were being sold/shipped from. Sorry to be so long winded. |
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Post by africaone on Feb 9, 2012 23:26:58 GMT -8
"So, again, it depends on where the animal is being sold from, and is it being legally possessed and sold. I'm not certain if it was ever specified where the insects were being sold/shipped from."
how can a specimens be legal if it is protected in his area ?
the texts specify ... the keeping, sale and transport of specimens taken from the wild ....
it is no more legal because sold by a Chinese. for date, a specimen must be registered to be really legal.
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Post by mygala on Feb 10, 2012 1:44:05 GMT -8
I don't know what texts you are referring to. I was just using China as an illustration.
I really don't know where the insects are being sold from on eBay, but that would be a key determinant as to whether it was a legal transaction or not. Without more specific information, I can't be accurate in my answer.
Again, the EU Annexes are laws for domestic trade only. Unless an EU country is party to the import/export, the Annexes have no bearing.
If the EU wanted to control international trade, they would only have to get the species listed under one of the CITES Appendices. If that were to happen, then the C. cerdo would be protected in all countries that are signatories of CITES.
Unfortunately, as it stands, the EU annexes have little effect outside of the EU, unless the importing country has a law like the Lacey Act. Most countries do not.
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