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Post by timmsyrj on Apr 27, 2013 9:04:14 GMT -8
Is it actually mimicry when species of the same genus look similar?? I thought it was when species of differing genus copied ( danidae and papilionidae for example) not 2 papilionidae species, if this is the case then there's loads of mimics (P.paris and karna) for 1.
Rich
apologies if this appears ignorant, it's not meant to be, it's a genuine question..
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Post by bobw on Apr 27, 2013 10:25:48 GMT -8
These are all Ornithoptera. They're all Aristolochia feeders so they're all poisonous.
Bob
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 27, 2013 13:25:30 GMT -8
I know, so there is no reason why they should imitate each other Sorry but that is WAY incorrect. There is a VERY good reason why they should imitate each other. Predators only need to learn to avoid one colour pattern in any one area. The same phenomenon can be seen across the range of Ornithoptera and in many other Troidini. For example in alexandrae territory many females of priamus look very similar to the female of alexandrae. A more familiar example to me is that of Troides helena. In West Malaysia the female of helena generally looks very like the male, with dark forewings, but in mainland SE Asia where T. aeacus is much commoner than T. helena the female of helena usually has grey streaks in the forewings just like the female of aeacus. This form is rather rarer in W. Malaysia, where aeacus is much rarer than helena. Another example is the dark Byasa polyeuctes in China. Across Asia B. polyeuctes has a white patch on the hindwings, as do other Byasa species, but in China there occur several dark species (impediens, mencius, plutonius, confusus) and where these are common Byasa polyeuctes either has a reduced or no white spot on the hindwing. In these areas the Batesian mimic, Papilio bootes also has a common all dark form, whereas the form with a white spot on the hindwings is much rarer. In Neotropical Parides, different species look very similar to each other in one locality, whereas the same group of several species look different to those from the first locality in other localities (but still similar to the other from the same place). This is one reason it is often quite difficult to tell some species of Parides apart at a glance. The difference between Batesian mimicry and Mullerian mimicry is that in Batesian mimicry the supposedly edible mimic is gaining an advantage by copying the pattern of the model and the model doesn't gain any advantage at all, whereas in Mullerian mimicry all the species involved are distasteful, so they ALL gain an advantage by looking the same to a predator. If there are 5 different species the predators only need to learn to avoid a single colour pattern. timmsyrj asked about the situation with paris and karna. This is not mimicry at all. The reason they look alike is simply because they are very closely related, and result from a species being isolated in 2 different places, evolving into 2 separate species and once the barrier causing isolation is removed (sea level change in this case). The 2 species can no longer interbreed after they meet, but still look very similar. Neither of them gains an advantage by looking similar to the other, so there is no mimicry involved. Adam.
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Post by nomad on Apr 27, 2013 23:00:10 GMT -8
Way back in 1979 Jan Haugum noticed that throughout its range Priamus poseidon females resembled other Ornithoptera when they were sympatric. Haugum and Matsuka also noted that this happens in other Ornithoptera [ Schoenbergia ].
Jan Haugum wrote "It is, therefore possible that in the regions of overlap, the phenotypes of poseidon and other Ornithoptera appear to be synaposematically modified and thus tend to converge as a result of Mullerian mimicry! " He mentions a number of examples where poseidon females resemble other Ornithoptera species where they overlap.
I too think there is a very good reason why it would be advantageous for female Ornithoptera flying in the same locality to resemble each other.
Peter.
Does anybody know what happened to Hirotaka Matsuka, the author of the fabulous : Natural History of Birdwing Butterflies.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Apr 28, 2013 1:23:48 GMT -8
Thank you, Peter, for the additional corroboration of my points on Ornithoptera. Indeed, poseidon females clearly correspond with the local females of other Ornithoptera species. I used the alexandrae example because it is very striking. In the Popondetta region there is a preponderance of dark poseidon females which look very similar to alexandrae females.
Adam.
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Post by timmsyrj on Apr 28, 2013 1:47:41 GMT -8
Thanks Adam and Peter for the information you've both given above, very helpful, I certainly knew the benefits of mimicry with a toxic species and protection against predators, the Mullerian mimicry I wasn't sure on, but does seem a little obvious now. That's what makes me a "collector" rather than an "entomologist" is guess..
Cheers, Rich
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Post by kingha on Jul 10, 2013 14:24:46 GMT -8
anyone else have photos? they have all been wonderful so far.
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Post by nomad on Jul 10, 2013 21:12:59 GMT -8
Thank you for sharing those. Wonderful specimens.
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Post by timmsyrj on Jul 11, 2013 6:11:50 GMT -8
Nice specimens laurie 1, but don't you collect the females or do you just keep them tucked away out of sight.
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Post by kingha on Jul 11, 2013 16:13:08 GMT -8
laurie1
incredible photos of your Ornithoptera.
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Post by laurie1 on Jul 12, 2013 16:56:34 GMT -8
Hey Rich, yep, lots and lots of females still to set (although have set quite a few ).
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Post by Zacatak on Jul 15, 2013 13:07:06 GMT -8
here is my pair of O. caelestis. glad i got them when i did
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2013 7:45:50 GMT -8
grafvalent, your Ornithoptera seem almost as if they are Virtual specimens, far too amazing, congratulations! I also have to add, great photographic/setting skills.
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Post by nomad on Aug 11, 2013 9:11:45 GMT -8
Very nice specimens and amazing photography. Wonderful!
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Post by Paradiseus on Aug 11, 2013 10:33:04 GMT -8
Hello, Peter! Thank you for your photos too, and information about the birdwings. Ornithoptera also is my favorite butterflies! Best regards
Hello, Thadeos! Yes, I retouched in Photoshop the background (in photo of Paradisea and meridionalis only, but not butterflues.) This insects are really perfect quality and was spreading by myself. Best regards
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