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Post by jonathan on Aug 6, 2013 11:15:47 GMT -8
To those who are considering collecting in Turkey...be very careful. Jean Claude Weiss was arrested a few days ago together with other collectors. The fine reached Eur100,000 & all specimens confiscated. I don't think that there's any butterfly which is worth the risk.
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pips
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Post by pips on Aug 6, 2013 12:11:20 GMT -8
Sad to hear because JC Weiss is a real collector-researcher. Was this fine for the whole collecting team or just for him? Because 100 000 Euro for 1 collector is almost impossible to pay...
Is all collecting prohibited in Turkey or just certain species. Because JC has a great interest in Parnassius and P. apollo is a great research subject in Turkey with several beautifull subspecies allready described and other yet to be discovered...
I hope this doesn't hurt his carreer as a great scientist.
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Post by jonathan on Aug 6, 2013 12:16:09 GMT -8
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 7, 2013 0:25:23 GMT -8
Shame on Turkey who has arrested a great scientist and not at all a commercial smuggler.
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pips
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Post by pips on Aug 7, 2013 1:00:12 GMT -8
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 1:20:44 GMT -8
I know of at least two other people who were fined with such unrealistic fines, one of 8 000 (for a single specimen inside a Natural park!), another 15 000 Euros for two dozen of specimens.
They dont seem to care of who you are as long as what you are doing is illegal, and I can understand that, the main thing is, they "hate" collectors.
And 2856 butterflies by three people caught on a course of a few days (which you know is strictly illegal), is asking for troubles, being you a scientist or not!
I wonder for what Jean Claude and others were needed 1000 butterflies each from a single location (and counting)...
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Post by suzuki on Aug 7, 2013 3:06:59 GMT -8
Yes 2856 specimens from a protected area seems very excessive even if you are a scientist.
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Post by bobw on Aug 7, 2013 3:36:45 GMT -8
Collecting in Turkey has been illegal for quite a while, and they look out for it particularly in the area where they were caught. This area is the only known locality in turkey for Colias c. caucasica and a nice race of P. apollo is also found there; for this reason it has always attracted collectors. The village of Yalalar (which was mentioned in the article) is at the base of the mountain where they are found and evidently the people who live there are specifically told to look out for butterfly collectors and report any sightings to the authorities.
I went there in 2003; the mountain is not easy to reach as it involves a 60km drive down an unmade track. We did eventually get there but all the time we were there we had thunderstorms so didn't even get the nets out. However we did some collecting along the road to the mountain which was quite spectacular - I've never seen so many butterflies in one place and there were a lot of interesting species. However, whenever a car drove past us, if we were a bit slow hiding the nets, they all made signs at us suggesting we'd be arrested for collecting.
I guess the simple answer is to avoid collecting in Turkey. In most countries where collecting is not allowed nobody cares so it's perfectly safe to collect; this certainly doesn't appear to be the case in Turkey.
Bob
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Post by jonathan on Aug 7, 2013 3:47:53 GMT -8
When I was in Turkey in 2006, I remember that on a particular occassion, as soon as we got out of our car with the nets, an old man came running shouting and yelling something in Turkish at us. I know that he was yelling as he was using a very agressive tone. It seems that the Turks are very protective towards their flora & fauna and recently their was a heavy educational drive to identify and report such actions.
So unless you have the proper permits in place, don't risk collecting in Turkey. It's not worth it.
On a seperate note, a scientist doesn't need all those specimens. I have to agree with suzuki thadeos. Whenever I collect, I'm very careful of what to keep and what to release back!
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Post by jonathan on Aug 7, 2013 4:08:52 GMT -8
Btw, these guys had the P. apollo with them. Considering that it is a CITES 1 species, I think that they were seriously asking for trouble. The law is the law and such species cannot be collected. Scientists or not, we are all aware of this.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 7, 2013 4:46:36 GMT -8
In most countries where collecting is not allowed nobody cares so it's perfectly safe to collect; this certainly doesn't appear to be the case in Turkey. Bob Bobw, I have to disagree on this one thing! It might be OK to collect in many countries where collecting is not allowed, and I have to admit I have done it before as many of us, but it isn't at all safe, as what you are going is to basically to go against the country laws. As you are a foreigner it only gets worse! If you go on thinking that way, that people just dont care, you are asking for troubles as well. People do care, and to be secretive or at least discrete on what you are doing should always be the rule in such situations. In some countries like Indonesia (Irian Jaya or Maluku islands) that might get you in big troubles, even to spend a while in Jail, same goes for India, most of South America etc. So far I never had any problems in Africa, but even while collecting in Africa you might get into trouble sometimes, I have heard of local people who were asked to stop collecting and some other stories of foreign people being ask to leave the country etc. Once in Mozambique I was kindly asked to pack and leave the immediate area as I was supposedly collecting on a Natural reserve, when I got back online I double checked it and in fact I was about 2-3 kilometers from it. They were enough kind and actually pretty friendly just because I spoke Portuguese, otherwise I would have been asked for a a "bribe" I am sure. |
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Post by bobw on Aug 7, 2013 5:07:57 GMT -8
Obviously you have to take account of local sensibilities. In most places the ordinary people don't care, although they do in some; in some places even officials don't care. You have to take account of local laws and conditions and make a judgement call; I'm sure the people in this case did and they got it wrong. I would never dream of trying to collect or export in some countries such as India or Brazil, and I was very careful in China; but most are OK.
Bob
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Post by Adam Cotton on Aug 7, 2013 6:03:11 GMT -8
Btw, these guys had the P. apollo with them. Considering that it is a CITES 1 species, I think that they were seriously asking for trouble. The law is the law and such species cannot be collected. Scientists or not, we are all aware of this. is listed under CITES 2, not appendix 1, but the principle is the same. Adam. |
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Post by wollastoni on Aug 7, 2013 8:01:00 GMT -8
Turkish has a stupid government. A French tourist in honeymoon spent one month in jail because he had a nice shell that he found on a beach in his luggage...
Please don't speak about JC Weiss as a commercial collector... He doesn't sell specimens and he has published more than 1000 scientific articles...
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Post by suzuki on Aug 7, 2013 9:32:17 GMT -8
On the face of it collecting 2,850 specimens from the same area,over a few days, does not seem very scientific. What were they planning to do with the hundreds and hundreds of duplicates?
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