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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 23, 2014 6:20:03 GMT -8
www.chiangraitimes.com/european-scientists-arrested-in-chiang-mai-for-collecting-insects.html CHIANG MAI -Four European Scientist have been arrested in Chiang Mai for collecting insects in a National Park without the correct permits, despite having received permission from military officials. Chiang Mai police identified the four suspects as German citizen Thomas Ihle, 40, Austrian Karel Cerny, 62, and Czech Republic citizens Zdenek Weidenhoffer, 76, and Bohumil Vodrlind, 60. City News in Chiang Mai reported the four scientists were apprehended by forestry officials and border patrol police in Doi Pha Hom Pok National Park, in Chiang Mai’s Mae Ai district, on Friday evening. Police also seized more than 1,000 butterflies and moths, as well as several reptile specimens and various species of beetle and other insects. The scientists used a neon light to attract insects, then caught them in a net and put them in bottles, police said. Officers seized other equipment as evidence, including various tools, bottles, syringes and plastic containers. The four men were arrested and taken to Mae Ai Police Station. They have been released from custody while arrangements are made for a formal bail application, and their passports have been confiscated. Police said tourists are allowed to stay overnight in national parks but must first receive permission from the park authorities, who should check that they are not planning to capture any animals.
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 23, 2014 6:45:32 GMT -8
Shame on Thai police !
Karel Cerny is a true scientist ! And they had a permission from some Thai officials !
Mainland Thailand nature has been nearly totally destroyed by corrupted politicians and loggers, these are the people who should be arrested and jailed. Not entomologists !!!
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Post by nomad on Oct 23, 2014 9:32:41 GMT -8
I believe if you are going to collect in National Parks, no matter who gives you permission you have to have the paperwork- permits and especially if any species are governed by cities. They are scientists, but have a lot of specimens, so they must have known they needed proper permits. It is no use trusting corrupt military personal. The same thing happened in India. So if you go to National Parks and areas where you need permits and get caught without them, you are going to be arrested. A 1.000 insects seems an awful lot to collect just for study, especially in a protected area.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 23, 2014 9:48:55 GMT -8
Peter,
In good conditions in the tropics you can catch 1,000 moths on a sheet in one night if you include everything that comes in, micro and macro. I guess they had been up there (probably at about 2000m altitude) for several nights though, as it's not easy to process that many moths in one night, even if there are 4 people doing it.
However, I do agree that you need permits to collect in a National Park. Problem is, nowadays even Thai government researchers have problems getting permits, never mind foreign scientists.
Adam.
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Post by papapapillon on Oct 23, 2014 14:14:40 GMT -8
It takes less than a minute to find the rules of collecting insects in Thailand:
Collecting outside of protected areas allowed without permit.
However, carefully avoid these protected species (and Actias rhodopneuma).
Contact always the Forest Protection Office for more details.
It is illegal to collect any wildlife in either National Parks, Wildlife Sanctuaries or Non-hunting Areas without written permission from the Director-General of the Royal Forest Department.
As insects were included under the legal definition of wildlife in 1992 (The Wild Animal Reservation and Protection Act (1992)) insects cannot be collected in any of these areas.
Those found collecting, or with insects originating, from these areas will be prosecuted.
That's the law in Thailand.
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 24, 2014 0:24:47 GMT -8
Yes sure, but as Adam says : " Problem is, nowadays even Thai government researchers have problems getting permits, never mind foreign scientists. "
Same thing for PNG, Indonesia, India, Brazil... so ... let's wait there is no more forest before making entomology.
I am sure they know the part of risk collecting there, I am just saying it is stupid to arrest them like poachers, to humiliate them in the press like this. A fine seems to me more appropriate.
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Post by jshuey on Oct 24, 2014 4:48:29 GMT -8
Yes sure, but as Adam says : " Problem is, nowadays even Thai government researchers have problems getting permits, never mind foreign scientists. " Same thing for PNG, Indonesia, India, Brazil... so ... let's wait there is no more forest before making entomology. I am sure they know the part of risk collecting there, I am just saying it is stupid to arrest them like poachers, to humiliate them in the press like this. A fine seems to me more appropriate. I think they hoped nobody will catch them and they will make it somehow with those permits they had....Sorry, but if they are true scientist they should get proper permits. If you are a scientis it does not mean that you can obey the laws!! For poachers it is expected to have no permits, but from a scientist you expect a proper behaviour. I would be also VERY angry if anybody (no matter on if it was a scientist or not) would collect hundreds of insects in our national parks without permits. I have to say that the problem is not that it is hard to get permits for national parks. It's that these guys choose to collect without proper permits. How hard is it to say to yourself, “it’s against the law, so I won’t collect in a national park”? Two analogies…. 1 - I have a 14 year old son, and he is in that "lack of impulse control" age. If he wants to do it, he either does it (no matter how stupid it is) or whines like a baby if he can’t. I tell him he will grow out of it as his brain matures. And at 14, I can see that he is starting to grow out of it. How old are those guys again? And they were acting like 14 year olds? Are they whining like babies because “I wanted to collect in a national park…”? It would piss me off if a bunch of 40-70 year old crybabies came into Indiana Dunes National Lakeshore (my local National Park) and collected without permits as well. National Parks are intended to conserve a nation’s heritage for everyone and for the future. That’s why you can’t carry in a riffle and just start shooting things. And almost every national park system has a procedure under which they will issue permits that are consistent with their mandate. 2 - I just spent two weeks in Guatemala earlier this month. I saw some great leps (and man - I do mean great bugs on the slopes of the stratovolcanoes and upward into cloud forest). I tried for six months to get a permit. I did not get a permit. I did not collect any bugs. I won’t whine about it. And I had a blast in Guatemala. So much so that we are pondering going back in January – again without a net. John Attachments:
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 24, 2014 5:42:08 GMT -8
Some French journalists have been arrested in West Papua (Indonesia) few weeks ago because they were interviewing Papuan tribes exterminated by Indonesian army... yes they had no permits from the Indonesian army to do so...
You can put your "morality" where you want.
But you are talking about entomologists making science and writing articles. Not about insect dealers...
radusho > European National Parks deliver easily some permits. Try to get a LIPI permit or a permit in PNG. The reality is that with those behaviours, some states are really blocking the entomological research.
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Post by nomad on Oct 24, 2014 6:06:39 GMT -8
Although, if I was lucky enough to collect butterflies in New Guinea or elsewhere where permits are needed. I would only do so, if I had a permit. However, what Olivier is saying is quite correct. Those same governments that make a big show of arresting rightly or wrongly foreign collectors will quite happily give illegal logging concessions to giant Asian companies. How many rare butterflies or moths are destroyed each day in those countries through loss of habitat. Do they care-no not at all. Do we, yes we should. This parading of foreign scientists in front of the cameras who have broken their laws, it is just a media show.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Oct 24, 2014 6:28:55 GMT -8
This parading of foreign scientists in front of the cameras who have broken their laws, it is just a media show. In Thailand whenever anyone is arrested they get paraded in front of the media, whether locals or foreigners, and regardless of guilt. If the UK police did that the case would be thrown out even before it got to court. Adam. |
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Post by africaone on Oct 24, 2014 6:36:28 GMT -8
This parading of foreign scientists in front of the cameras who have broken their laws, it is just a media show. In Thailand whenever anyone is arrested they get paraded in front of the media, whether locals or foreigners, and regardless of guilt. If the UK police did that the case would be thrown out even before it got to court. Adam. They is something like that in USA too ! |
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Post by wollastoni on Oct 24, 2014 9:37:37 GMT -8
Who is talking about private collection here  They are scientists in relation with museum, lep association and so on |
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Post by papapapillon on Oct 24, 2014 10:50:59 GMT -8
Yes, Thomas Ihle is a well known scientist, who works as a freelancer for German museums and universities.
Several new species were discovered by Thomas Ihle, some are still undescribed and four species are named after him:
Ihlegramma Ihlei (Eitschberger 2003)
Aholcocerus ihleorum (Yakovlev & Witt 2009)
Aloa ihlei (Cerny 2009)
Ovipennis thomasi (Cerny 2009)
Every month he organizes some collecting trips in Thailand, Laos, Vietnam and Myanmar.
It seems that the trip to the Doi Pha Hom Pok National Park was such a private event with some friends without any research contract.
I can not understand why he has gone without a valid permit just in a nature reserve for light capture.
A final opinion can only be formed if we know all the facts, including the report of Thomas Ihle.
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Post by damoose on Oct 24, 2014 15:11:17 GMT -8
Hopefully a legitimate explanation will be forthcoming after all of the facts come to light. In the meantime, Thai media gives insect collecting and collectors a black eye because of this. I remember years ago when several shady collectors were arrested after they were caught bringing larvae of Papilio indra kaiababensis out of Grand Canyon National Park. The sentences they received were quite severe and the image of "insect collectors" was tarnished for quite sometime. I really appreciate the many collectors on this forum who pay attention to all of the regulations that pertain to collecting. It would be good for this story to have a positive ending.
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Post by papapapillon on Oct 25, 2014 0:19:16 GMT -8
Thomas Ihle wrote a personal statement in the German community insecta nostra
Here a translation:
Dear friends and colleagues,
We know that a permit is required to work in the National Parks of Thailand, and we had no plans to enter a national park.
When we arrived to a forest near the Burmese border, which was referred on the map as "border zone", we asked the present military persons, if we can go into this forest. The guards let us go through.
We informed them that we are looking for insects, but they didn't tell us that it was an undeclared part of a National Park.
Later when we we met an armed group of men, they didn't tell us.
Only hours later the same men came back as official National Park Rangers and arrested us.
This tour was planned to get material for a new edition of the book "Moths of Thailand, VOL SIX, Arctiidae" by Dr. Karel Cerny.
Thank you for your interest and participation.
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They are scientists in relation with museum, lep association and so on