anna
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Post by anna on Dec 19, 2019 14:45:51 GMT -8
This conversation seems eternal and goes nowhere.
Come to Australia NOW.
Tell me there is no change in climate, join our Government in denial, it matters little debating who is to blame, blame is for children who won't accept responsibility, we can as humans moderate the way we plunder the planet, we complain that the destruction of habitat causes loss of flora and fauna, but, we are whether we like it or not causing an imbalance in the workings of this planet, we spend all out time still fighting tribal wars admittedly on a MATURE level, if we spent a fraction of the money that is pointlessly spent on space research and war games we would have at least a planet to live on
Currently we face homelessness through our immaturity and greed .
You, no doubt will think I am being melodramatic, Fine !!
But, the world has seen empires rise and empires fall and at this point it sure as hell isnt rising.
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anna
New Member
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Post by anna on Dec 19, 2019 18:36:51 GMT -8
Reply to Skandinavisk,
My comment re space research is simply there is always greener grass over the hill, if the funds poured into going to extreme expense visiting or wanting to visit other worlds instead of attending to the state of our only home in this of many universes we just might not be so f....d up.
And the endless chestbeating by government bodies is in my view not progressed beyond ancient civilizations, just now more able to destroy humanity for ego.
Am not going to say more, it's a neverending argument
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rjb
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Post by rjb on Dec 20, 2019 5:25:07 GMT -8
Gaspipe:
“Whoever you are ; and I guess at your affiliations ; those who disagree with you are condemned. Other opinions are not to be seen as credible. Fact is it is impossible to predict if radical rapid , changes you advocate will have any impact . Because I am not panicking I must be in denial. Please keep your posts shorter I fell alsleep half way through.”
Rick:
If I say that I disagree with you on the subject of modeling climate behavior, that is hardly “condemning” you.
Who I am doesn’t matter, but I have hardly been secretive. If you look at past threads going back many years here, I have told practically everything about myself and- who cares? I got a degree in chemistry many years ago, had a full career doing chemistry research for a national lab and retired years ago.
My main interest has always been beetles. I have a modest collection of 79,000 pinned specimens- and many hundreds of thousand preserved in fluids or dried. Added about 1500 specimens last year. I have a beetle named after me and about 5 publications on beetles. Am currently working on tiny staphylinidae that have given me trouble with identification.
I like diverse opinions, agreement is boring. I never want or expect you to change any of your thinking based on something I write. I post these long boring statements to explain what science says on this topic. You do not have to read any of it, of course!
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rjb
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Post by rjb on Dec 20, 2019 5:34:20 GMT -8
Anna,
My wife and I will spend a month in Australia starting next month. We hope the fires are under control by then. Here in New Mexico we have had drought and high temperatures and major forest fires in the last decade as well. These are not generally attributed to climate change, they are a long term climate characteristic aggravated by our poor forest management practices.
The squabbling over climate change has been continuing for decades and will not end soon. This kind of discussion just goes over the same stale ideas for the entertainment of readers.
For me it is a break from staring in my microscope for hours looking at tiny beetles.
Rick
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Post by exoticimports on Dec 20, 2019 6:05:10 GMT -8
This conversation seems eternal and goes nowhere. Come to Australia NOW. Tell me there is no change in climate, join our Government in denial, it matters little debating who is to blame, blame is for children who won't accept responsibility, we can as humans moderate the way we plunder the planet, we complain that the destruction of habitat causes loss of flora and fauna, but, we are whether we like it or not causing an imbalance in the workings of this planet, we spend all out time still fighting tribal wars admittedly on a MATURE level, if we spent a fraction of the money that is pointlessly spent on space research and war games we would have at least a planet to live on Currently we face homelessness through our immaturity and greed . You, no doubt will think I am being melodramatic, Fine !! But, the world has seen empires rise and empires fall and at this point it sure as hell isnt rising. Your last point is absolutely correct. And I argue it’s as it should be. All organisms all empires have a beginning and an end. Egypt, Greece, Ankor, Aztec, Nan Midol, etc. it’s our time to devolve. Homelessness in AUS though is manmade. What do you expect when national production is terminated? Who makes cars now? Who owns Lithgow arms production? Go read the 500 pages on SAF Lithgows history- communists and labor unions (greed) killed that town. Why is SYD struggling while BNE is growing? |
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Post by jshuey on Dec 20, 2019 6:40:28 GMT -8
You math is pretty much spot on. Carbon goes at about +- $30/ton in the California market. This is the amount that future generations subsidize us for releasing that CO2 - only given the time value of money, the costs to mitigate 20lbs of carbon in 30 years will likely be higher than the 30 cents today adjusted for inflation. It's always cheaper to clean up your mess today, rather than expect your kids to clean it up tomorrow. Superfund clean up costs are a great example. Instead of paying modest fees to proper dispose of pollutants in the past, companies often dumped wastes in ways that they knew were wrong (but saved them money at the time). Later, the costs to clean up the mess are higher and the companies are often long gone, meaning that they successfully passed those costs onward to you and me as tax payers. As a business strategy - it's perfect. Maximize profits today, and pass deferred mitigation costs off to the public at a later date. Essentially we subsidize past bad business behaviors. And that is what is happening with CO2. We do not pay the full costs associated with burning fossil fuels today, because we're cheapskates and because we know that future generations will pick up the costs and subsidize our behavior. john My god what nonsense. You can figure all the costs you want. All the money to waste on Green Deals and no one has any clue what if any impact they have because there is no way to factor in the innumerable variables that are involved . What is interesting, is that I was just involved in pulling together a few million dollar forestry management deal that will be sold on the California exchange - and you make ### up.... Don't confuse your confusion (or or more likely, ignorance, or sadly, even stupidity) with the solutions that others are working on (on your behalf). There is no silver bullet for reducing the negative impact that our children will see in coming decades. But there are silver BBs that can collectively soften the blow. Or maybe your kids don't deserve a future? John |
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Post by gaspipe on Dec 20, 2019 8:38:08 GMT -8
My god what nonsense. You can figure all the costs you want. All the money to waste on Green Deals and no one has any clue what if any impact they have because there is no way to factor in the innumerable variables that are involved . What is interesting, is that I was just involved in pulling together a few million dollar forestry management deal that will be sold on the California exchange - and you make ### up.... Don't confuse your confusion (or or more likely, ignorance, or sadly, even stupidity) with the solutions that others are working on (on your behalf). There is no silver bullet for reducing the negative impact that our children will see in coming decades. But there are silver BBs that can collectively soften the blow. Or maybe your kids don't deserve a future? John [ Ok this is my last post on this topic . My point has been proven . Now because in my years in academics seeing first hand how research is cherry picked by department chairpersons to satisfy special interests with an agenda ( and lots of grant money)I am now called stupid . OK if you and your forest management can improve the environment Iam fine with it. Where were you when poorly managed forests caused the enormous California fires last year that poured “greenhouse “ gases into the atmosphere and negated years of Californians paying dearly with taxpayer funds for the benefit of the environment .By the way don’t dare bring my family into anything. It’s always the same with people like you ; don’t agree or more importantly be at least a skeptic and you are condemned. Hypocrites one and all. |
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Dec 20, 2019 10:06:35 GMT -8
I have read and re-read this thread several times. One thing is abundantly clear to me. We all recognize there is a serious problem. However, there are numerous causes and numerous ideas on how to address and fix the problems.
Mother Earth "WILL" correct all of these problems. It may take a few 100 million years. She will wipe out humanity and start over. Whatever you believe or think what humanity should do to fix global warming, Mother Earth's fix will be more to the point. Mother Earth will solve and correct every problem created or caused by man.
Also by women as well. If Mother Earth brings some of us back, I know one of them will be me. I am highly intelligent with great charm and stunning good looks. She will use me to repopulate the Earth. That will be fun.
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rjb
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Post by rjb on Dec 22, 2019 12:50:08 GMT -8
Well said Leroy. Good luck on your repopulating effort. You will be very busy!
I don't think we all agree that there is a serious problem, but I doubt we will ever all agree on anything. It is not the human way.
I have been a scientist for most of my life and I naturally see the whole thing from the science perspective.
The US is constitutionally not allowed to favor any religions, but actually if you ask the people, most will say they are Christians, although many different kinds of Christians. A lot of polling suggests that maybe 40% of the Christians in the US might be “Biblical Literalists”. That is, for them the Bible is literally true. A fellow scientist and friend where I worked explained that for him if any tiny thing in the bible is wrong, then where do you stop in doubting everything. For him it is all literally true.
For this large population, scientists have blown it big time from the beginning. Science says the earth is 4 billion years old, the universe is more than 13 billion. All the biological world was produced through evolution. All of this totally contradicts Genesis and is therefore wrong. So for them (a lot of the US), what science claims about anything is doubtful. Physics, Geology and Biology have gotten most of the important stuff wrong. Why should they believe claims about Global Climate Change? I can’t argue with that, if that is their worldview. It makes sense for them to dismiss science. If God appears and declares that He is starting to cook the earth because He is mad about us burning up all His fossilized creatures, then they might change their mind.
A lot of other Christians think the bible is essentially right about everything but it needs intelligent interpretation. God did it all, but the description in genesis has to be read more broadly as poetic and indicative of reality rather than literally. For many of them, old-earth, old universe, and evolution are OK as long as you realize God did it all. They do not have to assume that science gets most stuff wrong. This group may be more receptive toward what science says about global warming or they might think science has blown it on this one.
I don’t see any future US consensus coming out of the current mess.
Hard-core scientists like me trust the science, so I think I can see the future and it is looking a little grim but not hopeless. I trust scientists and engineers to fix things before it gets too bad. I am basically an optimist always.
Rick
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Post by exoticimports on Dec 23, 2019 6:34:36 GMT -8
D’Abrera was a creationist.
As Leroy said, most everyone is on board with human-induced change as a crisis. That’s not the question. In fact, the arguements are about what we are being told.
That climate change is #1. I believe overpopulation, materialism, and the ocean depletion as a result of over fishing to have a more severe impact.
That we should trust what the governments tells us. LOL. No thanks. Questioning the motives and following the money are due diligence as members of society.
That we should trust scientists and their results. The track record is spotty. And see above. What harm can come by questioning their data and determinations? There nothing worse than a scientific study where there is no contrary to popular consensus. Let naysayers present alternatives. And there is the strong link between government and science, so see above.
Then there’s the fanatic ravings of the bandwagon. This to include followers of some spoiled 12’year old marketing tool. Seriously. All that does is further distance those who are asking for independent proof.
As for funding the future via government, hah. Obama admin threw billions into green technologies; some was siphoned off in corruption and some was wasted away. In New York similar efforts were all eaten by corrupt politicians and their business partners.
In USA governments from regional to national are busy blaming rifles for crime, when they statistically have no bearing and in any event nobody wants to stand up and admit its an urban culture problem. If they won’t tackle the real problem why trust them with anything else?
And we have USFWS busy with petty enforcement when they should all be eliminating both domestic and foreign deforestation.
Meanwhile The Swamp of career politicians can’t even regulate much less roll back urban poverty and crime. And Kalifonia, the leader in left wing experimentation, has blackouts, rampant drug problems, and record homelessness. Yeah, they are a real model of incompetent government.
These are the people I’m supposed to trust to fix the environment? Ah, no thanks.
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Post by exoticimports on Dec 24, 2019 6:37:25 GMT -8
This is not conspiracy theory, it’s fact borne out by clear evidence, including arrests and investigations.
It’s not a bad thing that money was invested in solar and green. It’s bad that the money was politically distributed and wasted.
UN isn’t a bad idea. But in the hands of politicians and the corrupt it’s faced scandal after scandal. Besides being totally ineffective at saving people in Rwanda and other troubled areas. And CITES has become a top heavy haven for the politically connected while largely failing to accomplish the original goal.
The fact remains that governments are highly ineffective and inefficient at their mandate, largely because of personal gain. This is nothing new, it’s been happening for thousands of years. It’s human nature.
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rjb
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Post by rjb on Dec 26, 2019 5:39:47 GMT -8
Exoticimports, I have to agree with Jan that you do some funny postings.
A while back I mentioned that you have said “Follow the money” and you came back denying that you said that. Now you say it again. Now you can deny it again? Unless you are nit-picking on the word “say” as opposed to “write in a post”.
You can blast all the things that governments do wrong, but government is just a part of society. You could blast all the things that “human legs” are bad for, kicking people, stomping helpless people etc etc. However legs are part of humans and do a lot of good things for us.
Governments are part of human society and they do a long long list of good things that hold society together and make it work. Governments also commit atrocities and waste money and make mega-mistakes. So what. You can hate and distrust governments and emphasize the negative, or you might find a better government than our own and switch to that one.
Rick
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Post by exoticimports on Dec 26, 2019 7:11:35 GMT -8
A while back I mentioned that you have said “Follow the money” and you came back denying that you said that. Now you say it again. Now you can deny it again? Unless you are nit-picking on the word “say” as opposed to “write in a post”. Rick Rick, what I took issue with is your fabricating and twisting what I said. Absolutely- follow the money. You falsely repeated my post with "follow the money except" which is not what I wrote. And there is a big difference. I never advocated looking the other way under any circumstance. Government is a necessity. When we have two people, we have a government of sorts. And we have a level of socialism. That's a fact. The problem we have faced with all societies is that the government becomes top-heavy and self-serving, both for its own sake and to the benefit of politicians and their allies. For the cost to support one privileged family, Rome fell to the Ostrogoths. In USA there exists the GAO that is supposed to watch where the money goes- but unfortunately, it hasn't been very effective. If it were, it would benefit everyone! Look at the money New York State poured into solar and regional development. Gone. Wasted. Siphoned off. A number of corrupt individuals went to prison. But sadly, no real development succeeded. Can you imagine if it had? If indeed a successful, self-sustaining solar industry had been incubated in the economically wrecked state of New York? It would have been a double bonus- alternative energy AND employment! But, predictable, it wasn't to be. California, despite being rich, suffers rolling blackouts for at least a decade, and now record levels of homeless. Leadership (in quotes) says the problem is solved by "more money" meaning "federal money." Uh huh. Somebody has to wake up and realize that it's the same old political genre that got them there, and can't fix it. Look at "Zimbabwe" Detroit for failed state economics; Look at "Port Moresby" Baltimore and Chicago for failed state crime. Same people, same ilk, same results. These people can't be trusted. First, because they are cheats. Second, because they have proven to be, at best, inept. So if New York wants to blow more money on solar, it should be deeply inspected with a jaundiced eye. Likewise with other "miracle cures" in all other regions. Chuck |
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Post by bichos on Dec 26, 2019 14:35:57 GMT -8
I may have found the antidote to Greta:
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Post by Paul K on Dec 26, 2019 20:56:33 GMT -8
We are heading towards another ice age which is actually due now or relatively soon, whether you like it or not. Will human activity postpone it by few centuries or so? Thoughts ?
Cheers
Paul
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