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Post by hewi on May 27, 2018 13:27:24 GMT -8
There is a natural hybrid between Agrias and Prepona.
It had been described as a new species: Prepona sarumani SMART, 1976
It was assumed that this was a cross between Prepona praeneste and Agrias claudina.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on May 27, 2018 16:20:34 GMT -8
I have only collected a few family's of Neotropical butterflies and moths. Hamadryas, Marpesia, Anaea and Catagrama. I also collected moths, Arctidea and Sphingidea. I donated all of the moths to the McGuire Center years ago. I debate with my cats whether or not to donate the butterflies to the McGuire Center as well.
I can understand the attraction to Neotropical Lepidoptera. They are stunning creatures. However, I cannot believe the prices that some of you pay for them. I am not a poor man, however, I would rather take Momma out west to see the great splendor of nature than to purchase expensive rarities from the Neotropics.
It might prove otherwise if I actually went to the Neotropics to collect. I would probably go nuts. My wife thinks I'm nuts already.
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Post by lordpandarus on May 28, 2018 18:24:01 GMT -8
Like I said many times, my usual limit is about 100$ for a butterfly if it is an extremely beautiful species, and i've rarely paid that even
Made an exception for the Charaxes fournierae at 350$, which is probably the most i ever paid for a single species. I also did get a Prepona werneri for 250$,P. brooksiana escalantiana for 200$ and female spring form P. hermeli for 200$ but that's about it
Even with my price limit I managed to get 95% of the "beautiful" worldwide species over the years in A1 by being patient
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Post by kirkwilliams on Jun 1, 2018 17:32:27 GMT -8
I recently acquired two of these hybrids from Tony in Peru. They were extremely difficult to relax and set. The buckling at the forewing main vein attachment was difficult to overcome. I suspected that the problem was how they were killed and Tony confessed that many of the Peruvian specimens are killed by injecting Formalin!
The effect, just as in all histology specimens, is tix FIX and preserve living tissue. I believe this accounts for the inability to rehydrate the muscle tissue, thus the difficulty in setting. Tony said they have no alternative in the steamy jungle. This is a terrible practice and you cannot guarantee its use until too late. They dont seem to use this in other parts of the world. Even specimens from Michael Büche have suffered this fate. Kirk
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Post by lordpandarus on Jun 1, 2018 20:09:54 GMT -8
yeah, looking at all the set specimens so far I knew it was something like that
That's a major reason why I wouldn't get one because your almost guaranteed to screw up the setting, and your post confirms it's very risky to buy one
I figure it's the same thing with those Papilio androgeos females I tried to set and failed several times
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Post by bobw on Jun 2, 2018 0:27:19 GMT -8
I should imagine that Tony and Michael probably use a lot of the same suppliers so it's not surprising that their specimens could have similar problems. Michael supplies most of his material already set so presumably he must have some way of overcoming the problem.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2018 0:35:45 GMT -8
Had the same problem years back from the same source with a male anaeomorpha splendida, took a week to relax and was a complete and utter pain to set.
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Post by nomihoudai on Jun 2, 2018 1:50:56 GMT -8
When they have been heavily struck by formol the only escape is to cut the muscle at the top and glue the wing in place. I once went through a huge shipment with formol damage and it was a nightmare.
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jun 2, 2018 2:41:08 GMT -8
Question? Because I prepare fresh specimens that I have collected and/or either mount fresh or from a freezer. I rehydrate most specimens from the freezer and they easily spread. Every now and then you get one that just likes to be ornery. I must then cut wing muscles. And once in a blue moon I get one that absolutely will not cooperate. Thrash time and onto the next specimen.
Now if I paid several hundred dollars for specimens, I would be lamenting like some of you. This leads to my question: What is this chemical Formol? And, how is it used?
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 2, 2018 5:27:20 GMT -8
It's formalin, used to be known as formaldehyde. Presumably "formol" is the Czech(?) word for this chemical.
Here in Thailand, apart from scientific use to preserve dead animals it is generally used to preserve bodies during the several days, or sometimes much longer, of funeral ceremonies.
30+ years ago here local insect catchers used to kill beetles with formalin. It makes the muscle tissue all hard and rubbery, and it is impossible to relax them afterwards.
Adam.
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Post by Adam Cotton on Jun 2, 2018 7:14:49 GMT -8
formol is a 10% solution of formaldehyde Ah thanks for enlightening us, I assumed that it was a foreign name for formalin as I had never heard of formol. Adam. |
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Post by kirkwilliams on Jun 2, 2018 13:30:02 GMT -8
Glad we are all on the same page.
Similarly I had the exact problem with two Anaeomorpha splendida esmeralda from Tony. Enough to make me start collecting coins and stamps!
Im convinced that formalin chemically converts muscle tissue to a hard woody substance. Like the old plastinated cadavers from the late 19th century. I have a friend who is a pathologist. I will ask her and report back.
Tony claims one reason they use it is that is dessicates the butterflies chemically so they dont mould or rot in the rainforest. He also claims that is a low concentration it works. I have bought my last butterfly treated this way. Maybe they could be convinced to kill their specimens differently.
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Post by africaone on Jun 2, 2018 22:50:25 GMT -8
… that formalin chemically converts muscle tissue to a hard woody substance. ... it's right and reason why I don't use it. I started as many beginers with this and had very much problems (muscle like wood). What I use today, like many others collectors, is ammoniac (small injection) for moths and butterflies and acetate for beetles,other soft insect (also as conservator before setting) and small moths (vapoured as killer agent). Body are very soft, dried very well and are eays to rehydaratate in case of need. Also it seems to have no consequence for barcoding. |
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Post by lordpandarus on Jun 3, 2018 17:28:29 GMT -8
It's very interesting that the killing substance can make the setting so much more difficult
And why I was so worried setting that Charaxes fournierae a few weeks ago
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Post by africaone on Jun 3, 2018 22:52:52 GMT -8
Charaxes is very musculed and this add to the difficulty.
Before the setting (around 1/2 to 1 H) and after 1-2 days putting in a hydrating box, you can inject carefully a small quantity of ammoniac in the thorax (in many case it soften the muscles). I use this technic for many years for nearly all the lepido I set. Be careful to not inject to much as it destroyed color on wings if ammoniac infiltrates in the wing. Another way very much more agressive and that need experience is to cut with a scalpel the muscle under the wings (it took me dozens of spécimens before doing it properly, espacially with Charaxes and Sphingid and some "hard" Saturniid. this technic is also used by Hesperiid collectors.
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