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Post by lordpandarus on Jun 5, 2018 20:12:57 GMT -8
that sounds to scary to try on a butterfly I could only get once in my lifetime.
In the end it relaxed ok after 4 days in the relaxing box
I was never good at injecting thorax. somehow the liquid won't go in properly .I'll try it again on inexpensive species
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Post by africaone on Jun 5, 2018 22:28:44 GMT -8
. . . In the end it relaxed ok after 4 days in the relaxing box . . .  one must be careful with this as after 2 days, the moisture often infiltrate the scales and discolors the wings. Also the bacterial and fungal activity are helped with moisture and in 4 days you can completly lost a specimens with fungus covery or soft part digested by bacteria (is is particularly true with specimens badly dried). Of course you can use chemical inside the relaxing box, it depends on how you estimate your life value.  In Charaxes the scales are very tight that probably protect it. |
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Post by lordpandarus on Jun 5, 2018 22:54:56 GMT -8
I place my specimens direcly in between damp paper towels inside a closed tupperware. It relaxes them well and wings don't get stained .I don't recall fungus growing on a specimen either. I think it was instructions from the Butterfly Company many years ago that told me to do it that way. All I know is that just placing them on a grill over water doesn't work very well and makes specimens much more prone to water damege. Sometimes butterflies will seem "globally" discolored out of the relaxing box (like the metallic green of Papilio palinurus/blumei that becomes brownish) but when they dry they come back normal color. it's not the same as a permanent stain Actually ianni also tells you to relax butterfly that way: iannibutterfly2.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=13&Itemid=27 |
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Post by kirkwilliams on Jun 6, 2018 11:33:09 GMT -8
I put them in a plastic box with a plastic grill over the damp newspaper that has a tablespoon of vinegar to reduce mould. I change the paper every two weeks. Then I leave the butterflies in their triangles in the box for about 4 hours. At this point I use an insulin syringe (1ml or even 0.3 ml) to inject between 0.3 to 0.6ml of warm water into the thorax. Leave it in the box a further 30 minutes. Then GENTLY start to compress the thorax while on tissue paper to soak up any excess fluid. Check wing mobility and add another 0.3 ml water as required then back into the relaxing box. Repeat the gentle mobilization of wings. Clearly this takes longer for ornithoptera and charaxes. Most specimens are ruined by too much time in the relaxing box causing abdominal water or oil soluble contents to leech out. Charaxinae are dreadful for this causing that tobacco coloured spot on the hindwings which = throw into bin in disgust!!
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Post by lordpandarus on Jun 7, 2018 18:05:44 GMT -8
I think those stains happen because there was some dried crap already in the anal fold from when the specimen died. Also it almost never happens when the tip of the abdomen is protruding from the wings when the specimen is in it's dried state
I've tried to explain this already , but when they are in between damp paper towels, the humidity is more easily absorbed into the body, but also since the paper is touching the wings it reabsorbs the excess and prevents the formation of condensation water droplets that cause the real water stains (not the same as the temporary discoloration due to general humidity). I've rarely seen damage up to 4 days in there. When they are over a grill they can get stained a lot more easily. Does this make any sense?
Anyways to sum it up, I've never had to inject a specimen because 99% of them relax properly. It's that 1 % due to bad chemicals that don't relax no matter what you do. I can see how maybe injecting could enhance my technique for large body butterflies though, so I'll try to practice.
I also stick my thumb nail in between the thorax and the anterior wing base and push outwards to fully and correctly open the wings before placing on the setting board to prevent "shouldering". I try not to cut my nail too short when I know I'm going to set butterflies because I use my finger as a tool.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 2:10:31 GMT -8
Paper towels method has always worked for me with the exception of green ornithoptera and any maculinea which must never come into contact with any water, staining is inevitable.
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Post by lordpandarus on Jun 9, 2018 8:48:05 GMT -8
I don't spread a lot of Ornithoptera , but the few I did didn't have any problems. They became brown then green again
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Post by jhyatt on Jun 9, 2018 11:51:16 GMT -8
I once did the experiment of injecting 0.5 cc of water into the thorax, then fully immersing a damaged, worn green priamus ssp in water for 6 hours. After spreading and drying in air, there was no staining, brown or otherwise. Water just doesn't stain lep wings!
However, I will accept that things dissolved in water (proteins? Gut contents?) could cause staining.
jh
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Post by nomihoudai on Jun 9, 2018 13:02:01 GMT -8
Blue Lycaenidae will discolor horribly when coming into contact with water. Some of them will also get green stains, probably by something that is washed out of the body (short strained oils maybe?).
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leptraps
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Post by leptraps on Jun 9, 2018 14:47:50 GMT -8
I have mentioned this before. I freeze all my specimen rather than letting the dry out. I rehydrate them with water in a Bio-Seal contained and I have never experienced staining or discoloration.
I occasionally receive papered material. I use the same method with no problems.
However, some of you acquire expensive material and I can understand the concerns and problems.
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Post by jhyatt on Jun 10, 2018 5:25:04 GMT -8
Yep, I have seen Lycaenid scales appear to mat down irreversibly after getting wet. I forgot about those cases...
I keep my fresh-caught papered material in a freezer too, but I find that after a few years it has become quite dry and requires relaxing. But if they're only stored frozen for a few weeks, they're generally mountable upon thawing without relaxing.
jh
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2018 1:03:07 GMT -8
Priamus won't stain but with goliath and paradisea you are taking a chance, too expensive to mess up. It's a well known fact that certain lycaenids discolour and stain with water contact.
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Post by lordpandarus on Jun 11, 2018 19:50:26 GMT -8
I've never spread a fresh butterfly
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Post by Paul K on Jun 12, 2018 4:36:10 GMT -8
I've never spread a fresh butterfly How that could happen ? |
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Post by bichos on Jun 12, 2018 4:48:04 GMT -8
I've never spread a fresh butterfly How that could happen ? Maybe he always in the field! Ive mostly spread fresh specimens. Hesperidae are best spread fresh... |
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one must be careful with this as after 2 days, the moisture often infiltrate the scales and discolors the wings. Also the bacterial and fungal activity are helped with moisture and in 4 days you can completly lost a specimens with fungus covery or soft part digested by bacteria (is is particularly true with specimens badly dried). Of course you can use chemical inside the relaxing box, it depends on how you estimate your life value. 
